Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

Story Now gaming is not purely a collaborative storytelling experience. Yes, characters are often defined in terms of their narrative capabilities and nature. Yes, players are given more authority over fictional position than is normal in a traditional game. There is a reason why GMs are given strong authority when it comes to framing scenes - Story Now games are still games, not toys. Players are still supposed to be challenged. They are just challenged more in terms of narrative decisions, utilization of game resources, and clever use of fictional positioning. They also focus on a wide variety of different conflicts and are at least as varied as traditional games.
 

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Y'know, reading that MBC, I wonder if that might be where the disconnect with Ahn might lie. He's stated a few times that his players are more social players than not, which might feed into his playstyle a lot better.

Could be. There seems to have been some confusion as to what you (and I) meant by "social". I'll elaborate.

D&D is more than just a social outlet in the same way that basketball and working out are social outlets. "Being a social outlet" is derivative of the 1st order nature of those pasttimes. The impetus of basketball is to atheletically compete within the confines of a structured rulest until the victory conditions are acheieved. There are multiple 2nd order effects, "a social outlet" being one of them (exercise being another). Cross-training, runnnig or working out (in any fashion) is the same. These activities may have derivative effects/perks, but the constructs themselves are predicated opon "physical competition" and "fitness improvement or maintenance."

These differ from, say, "getting drinks" or "getting coffee" in that those activities serve the primary function of "social outlet." They may have derivative effects/perks, but the construct itself is predicated opon "being a social outlet."

For the same reason that (at this point in my oh so very long GMing tenure) I don't want people coming to the court or doing cross-fit with me who are primarily interested in "coffee talk" or "a social outlet", I don't want the same thing in the games that I run. That is, unless I'm doing a one-off that is literally serving as social grease for buddies to have a laugh.

I also don't want to have a cup of coffee with someone who wants to turn it into a coffee drinking competition or sit there quietly for the hour.

Story Now gaming is not purely a collaborative storytelling experience. Yes, characters are often defined in terms of their narrative capabilities and nature. Yes, players are given more authority over fictional position than is normal in a traditional game. There is a reason why GMs are given strong authority when it comes to framing scenes - Story Now games are still games, not toys. Players are still supposed to be challenged. They are just challenged more in terms of narrative decisions, utilization of game resources, and clever use of fictional positioning. They also focus on a wide variety of different conflicts and are at least as varied as traditional games.

Yup. Good post. @pemerton always tries to stress the temporal aspect of the creative agenda as the relevant portion; "Now". That, of course, is on the money. Its not "Story during writing of the adventure path (prior)." Its not "Story later on at some point after we get to all of these unrelated side-quests." Its "Story Now", as in we are "seeing what happens" when conflict resolution mechanics meet thematic stress, meets player resources, meets player cues (overt via outright fiction imposition or more subdued as in backstory that is meant to be invoked by the GM), and GMing by way of pressuring players with conflict-charged situations that synthesizes it all and forces it into the forefront of each session.
 

if I wanted more shared narrative control, I certainly wouldn't use a system like D&D that has so many onerous sim elements.

<snip>

If I wanted truly shared storytelling, I see nothing to be gained by having a player build a character using a class or roll a check at all.
By making it clear who adjudicates and who's in charge, I've fixed a lot of problems.
Story Now gaming is not purely a collaborative storytelling experience.

<snip>

Story Now games are still games
I agree with Campbell here. "Story now", or "indie", rpging is RPGing. Not conch-passing.

The function of checks is primarily to allocate authority to narrate situation and consequence. Checks do this in two ways: (i) by causing everyone in the game to become clear on what is happening in the fiction, and what is at stake from the player's point of view; (ii) by distribuing the authority to then stipulate what, in the fiction, happens in relation to that situation and those stakes. Without checks, (i) and (ii) would still have to take place. Otherwise, how would the game progress? And how would he group establish the content of the shared imaginary space?

One answer to those questions is: the GM would decide. Which suggests that checks are actually less important to a GM-driven game. (And I think this is borne out by the GMing advice in 90s White Wolf games and the 2nd ed books, which suggest that the GM disregard dice rolls; and by 90s modules that are written in a way that makes actual mechanical resolution irrelevant to the unfolding of the module's events.)

The allocation of narrative authority could be done via coin tosses (is that roughly how Prince Valiant works?), but that's obviously not the only way. It is possible to have fairly typical PC builds - with different bonuses in different attributes - that still work in an "indie" way.

From a process simulationist point of view, skill bonuses are typically read as measuring PC ability. But in "indie" play, the preeminent function of skill bonuses is to deal with (ii) and therefore create incentives in relation to (i). For instance, if my bonus in Intimidate is high, then when a check is made I am more likely to succeed. Which means if I, as a player, approach situations with my PC attempting to Intimidate, I am more likely to be the one who gets to narrate consequences. Conversely, if my Acrobatics bonus is low, and I bring my PC into, or find myself framed into, a situation which requires acrobatic flourish, it is more likely that the GM will get to narrate cosequences, including my failure to realise what I (and my PC) were hoping to achieve.

But this doesn't have to be understood in terms of competence or incompetence. It can be good fortune or bad luck; reptuation, in the case of Intimidation; bad ground, in the case of Acrobatics; or any other fictional element that the adds colour and further possibilities to the situation.

(A further design question: should low bonuses, which mean that a PC is likely to lose what is at stake in situations that test that bonus, be considered disadvantages - because the player is less likely to succeed - or advantages - because they increase the likelihood that the PC will dominate the scene in question (by failing in some intereseting way) and thereby give the player spotlight time? 4e says "disadvantage". Burning Wheel says "disadvantage" for skills, but "advantage" for some traits like physical disabilities that will tend to make the character dominate the resolution of many scenes. The design choices interact with other decisions around stake-setting and rewards.)

The interaction between (a) player build choices, which give them incentives and prospects for success, and that will showcase their PCs in different ways, and (b) GM framing choices, which push those PCs into particular sorts of challenges, leads to the outcomes of play, and is arguably more diverse when PCs are built in different ways with different checks having different prospects of success.

I like the Cortex games as my second system of choice because that's what they're about. It's a skill-based system (not class-based), but has a lot more explicit metagame horse-trading between player and DM, and significant metagame mechanics integrated in.

It does not, however, use them to enforce a degree of sameness between disparate character concept.
The only Cortex game I know is Marvel Heroic RP. It has a uniform resolution and resource system for all players. I have found it is very common to see criticisms of MHRP from a process simulationist perspective that are very similar to criticisms of 4e D&D: that it's a dice-rolling game; that PCs are all the same; that there is no mechanical difference between different power sources; etc.

In both games the difference resides in the fiction, and the play that is engendered by the interaction between mechanics and fictional positioning.

On the framing side of things, one of the most distinctive features of Marvel Heroic, to my mind, is the Doom Pool: once a scene is framed, there is a clear mechanical upper limit on how hard it can get, because the introduction of new complications unrelated to a failed check by a player (such as reinforcements for the bad guys) requires Doom Pool expenditure. This gives a degree of metagame transparency to players that is even greater than 4e, which has clear level-relative DCs but no formal mechanical constraints on how the GM may evolve scenes. (And my players have frequently noted that one fact that affects their play is the knowledge that I like to evolve scenes as they unfold, to introduce new opponents or new complications.)

I think the main function of this sort of transparency and mechanical consraint is to give players confidence to mechanically engage scenes in a gung-ho fashion, and to reduce incentives to the turtling and caution that are the absolute enemy of "indie" play, but via techniques other than GM fiat. (Fail forward is obviously another part of this.)
 

The only Cortex game I know is Marvel Heroic RP.
That's Cortex Plus. My understanding is that the Plus is a very different approach.

It has a uniform resolution and resource system for all players. I have found it is very common to see criticisms of MHRP from a process simulationist perspective that are very similar to criticisms of 4e D&D: that it's a dice-rolling game; that PCs are all the same; that there is no mechanical difference between different power sources; etc.
The Cortex games differentiate substantially between characters; it's a skill-based system whose basic mechanics aren't all that different from d20. There is very little sense of balance between player characters; one could build a janitor and the other a fighter pilot.

They also mix in metagame mechanics, and the character traits range from totally in-world to totally meta. The flaws are strongly integrated into the action point system, which actively encourages the players to come up with plot ideas and bribe the GM with action (plot) points, who in turn is encouraged to screw the players over by creating misfortune and targeting their flaws and reward them with plot points when things go wrong. The relationship between players and GM is not equal, but it is a good deal more dynamic than D&D.

Which is all totally different from Marvel as I understand it.
 


Ah, my bad. I said social and I meant casual. That should clear up the misunderstanding.
Honestly, I don't think casual is the right term either (even though I suggested it). It's possible to have a player who is very invested in the game but has no aspirations of controlling it. I would classify my players as being a mix of casual and not; some are more into the game than others.

After all, some of the most famous people in the world make their living playing characters over which they have little or no creative control. It's possible to play without wanting to DM.
 

The best way to tell the difference between a casual and a serious gamer is to see how many books they have.
 


Fair enough. I have a couple of players who have close to every 3e book and don't want to DM. To me, that makes them serious players.
Oh, absolutely, you can have serious players who don't want to DM. DMs are just (obviously) much more likely to be serious players.
 

I honestly don't think that the difference in preference really comes from degree of seriousness. I also don't think there's a high correlation between Story Now gaming and wanting to be a GM.

Personally, my interests in Story Now gaming developed over a long period of frustration with setting centered , preplanned adventure oriented play on both sides of the screen. I did not enjoy the experience of 'solving' this week's adventure, felt like beyond color characters were interchangeable pegs, and began to see too much pressure towards optimal play. I felt like I was constantly waiting for some big payoff that never came. I kept seeing characters with no real dramatic needs, grew tired off world building, etc. Then I ran some Mutants and Masterminds and Buffy games, and a light bulb went off for me.

I think we've already covered that existing directly in someone else's mind space isn't really a draw for me. I was attracted to RPGs because I could use characters to express something, make hard choices, and feel like I was part of a sweeping narrative. I also really like games. I like being challenged. I like considering my actions carefully and interacting with mechanics. I wanted what 2e and Vampire seemed to promise, but always fell short of.

To a certain extent with the right playgroup 4e definitely presses the right buttons for me, but it is by no means my favorite RPG. Right now the game that is taking up most of my RPG head space is post God Machine Chronicles World of Darkness. It has a number of features that promote the type of play I'm interested in:
  • An experience system that rewards engaging the narrative and making tough choices: You receive xp for fulfilling player defined aspirations, electing to turn a failure into a dramatic failure, and resolving conditions - little prepackaged complications that are a direct result of mechanical resolution.
  • Combat that serves a narrative purpose - before initiative is rolled players and GMs declare intent. If a character takes any lethal damage or bashing damage equal to their stamina. They gain the Beaten Down condition. In order to continue taking aggressive action they must pay willpower. This condition can be resolved by giving in - letting your opponent realize their intent. This gives experience and willpower back to the player's character. You can also choose to go for blood which means all bets are off - basically raising a flag saying that in the fiction its either your character or the character you are facing.
  • The willpower feedback loop. Willpower is the main non-supernatural character resource, granting 3 dice on almost any roll among other things. Every character has a virtue and a vice. When playing your vice you get one willpower point back. When playing to your virtue when it causes harm to come to your character you receive all your willpower back.
  • Tight thematic content in the individual games: Demon is a game about the tension between using your abilities to fulfill your agenda while staying off the God Machine's radar. You have access to a host of abilities that require you to make compromise rolls to avoid the notice of the God Machine and his agents. Based on the results you choose from a menu of conditions to enter play with interesting results for success and failure.
  • Meaningful trade offs for high and low morality tracks.
  • Down and Dirty Combat: Against less significant enemies you can call for a quick combat roll off. Success means you realize your intent. Failure means you don't.
 
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