Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] Have you played Dungeon World? It is a pulp-lovefest, system light, Story Now version of D&D. I think it would likely hit all the right notes for you for your D&D.

Its much easier as a play-by-post system as well given that (i) all rolling is done player side and (ii) the tactical overhead (thus the precision requirements) is relaxed considerably when compared to 4e.

 

[sheadunne]

That's Cortex Plus. My understanding is that the Plus is a very different approach.

Correct.

The Cortex games differentiate substantially between characters; it's a skill-based system whose basic mechanics aren't all that different from d20. There is very little sense of balance between player characters; one could build a janitor and the other a fighter pilot.

I am a huge fan of the cortex skill system and wished that D&D would use something similar, instead of the crappy one that's been floating around for a couple of editions now.

 

[Ahnehnois]

[MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION]
Hey, I'm all for that.

Personally, my interests in Story Now gaming developed over a long period of frustration with setting centered , preplanned adventure oriented play on both sides of the screen. I did not enjoy the experience of 'solving' this week's adventure, felt like beyond color characters were interchangeable pegs, and began to see too much pressure towards optimal play. I felt like I was constantly waiting for some big payoff that never came.

Sounds to me like your issue was with adventures rather than rules. To me, that sounds a lot like a few games I played in with inferior DMs who couldn't or didn't create their own story. It doesn't sound much like the open-ended, unpredictable, improvisational, and artistically fulfilling games that I run using the exact same system.

 

[Campbell]

Sounds to me like your issue was with adventures rather than rules. To me, that sounds a lot like a few games I played in with inferior DMs who couldn't or didn't create their own story. It doesn't sound much like the open-ended, unpredictable, improvisational, and artistically fulfilling games that I run using the exact same system.

I don't think I had inferior DMs. The games I played in were not bad - I enjoyed them. They just didn't really satisfy me. The GMs* created their own content, the other players created interesting characters, and the story was entertaining. However, while everyone else was busy chewing scenery and getting into character, I was playing a fundamentally different game from everyone else at the table. I wasn't interested in what made the most sense or where causal logic would lead me. I was interested in what could be the most entertaining and what decisions would lead to the most interesting story.

Could I continue to play this way or find like minded people and twist a game like GURPS to my play agenda? Of course. But why should I when there are games designed to deliver the type of narrative tension I crave? Could I run a game like Demon the Descent and place my decisions as a GM above the compromise mechanics and hand out xp by fiat? Sure, but in doing so I would be manipulating events to my own ends and be fully cognizant of what is about to happen for the most part. We wouldn't be seeing what happens and players wouldn't feel the tension of knowing exactly what they are risking for their characters - they also wouldn't be feeling the narrative as it unfolds. I love the feeling where the game seems to take on a life of its own, where you could cut the tension with a knife, where it feels like no one and everyone is in control of the fiction at the same time. There is nothing more exciting to me than hard scene framing and players effectively utilizing resources to push hard on the scene and their fictional positioning (and sometimes each other) and no one being sure what is going to happen.

Screw adventures! Screw plot! I want Story Now!

* Including a good deal of the time where I ran games.

Edit: I do not mean to demean anyone's play style. My lack of desire for character acting, illusionism, and other traditional techniques is my own issue.

 

[Campbell]

[MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] Have you played Dungeon World? It is a pulp-lovefest, system light, Story Now version of D&D. I think it would likely hit all the right notes for you for your D&D.

Its much easier as a play-by-post system as well given that (i) all rolling is done player side and (ii) the tactical overhead (thus the precision requirements) is relaxed considerably when compared to 4e.

I have it, but haven't gotten the chance to play it. It looks like a game I could enjoy, but the traditional themes of D&D (exploration, treasure hunting, a class of adventurers, power for power's sake) are not really elements I enjoy for too much time. I liked 4e pretty much because I could play it as a heroic fantasy game with a thematic setting. I could completely ignore dungeon crawling. It's really not surprising that an edition of D&D that hews closer to the game's core story has not captivated me. I almost view 4e up until Essentials as a happy accident. I pretty much stick around these parts mostly because I've been a part of this community under one user name or another since back in 2000. Plus I've learned a lot about running games from you, LostSoul, pemerton, and JamesonCourage*.

* Even though we have strong play style differences.

 

[Manbearcat]

I have it, but haven't gotten the chance to play it. It looks like a game I could enjoy, but the traditional themes of D&D (exploration, treasure hunting, a class of adventurers, power for power's sake) are not really elements I enjoy for too much time. I liked 4e pretty much because I could play it as a heroic fantasy game with a thematic setting. I could completely ignore dungeon crawling. It's really not surprising that an edition of D&D that hews closer to the game's core story has not captivated me. I almost view 4e up until Essentials as a happy accident. I pretty much stick around these parts mostly because I've been a part of this community under one user name or another since back in 2000. Plus I've learned a lot about running games from you, LostSoul, pemerton, and JamesonCourage*.

* Even though we have strong play style differences.

Understood. However, a deft GM can easily drift Dungeon World's default to a much more mythic, big damn heroes or romantic fantasy approach. Just for kicks my home game has taken a hacked MHRP and Dungeon World, transcribed their 4e characters to each system and we've played sessions of our 4e game in those systems to see how close they hew thematically. We're pretty much in agreement that its spot on.

The great thing about the Dungeon World and MHRP engine is that the basic resolution mechanics and PC build schemes easily support refluffing of the thematics.

 

[Campbell]

Understood. However, a deft GM can easily drift Dungeon World's default to a much more mythic, big damn heroes or romantic fantasy approach. Just for kicks my home game has taken a hacked MHRP and Dungeon World, transcribed their 4e characters to each system and we've played sessions of our 4e game in those systems to see how close they hew thematically. We're pretty much in agreement that its spot on.

The great thing about the Dungeon World and MHRP engine is that the basic resolution mechanics and PC build schemes easily support refluffing of the thematics.

It's definitely something to think about. Lately my own thought experiments have been hewing towards a 4e hack that eschews feats and only includes active abilities.

• I'd retain the action economy, but not retain the encounter/daily distinction. Abilities would be powered through Tension or Will.
• Tension would be an incrementing resource that resets on your turn during every framed scene. The idea is to model how characters in fiction pull off more desperate moves as tensions escalate.
• Will would be gained through resolving GMC style conditions and thematic triggers acquired in the PC build process.
• Rather than levels with escalating numbers there would be thematic tiers of content that a play group could collectively choose to escalate to.
• NPCs would have abilities that make use of tension, and also abilities that when used would apply conditions that can only be active on one PC.
• To clarify the intent of hp they would be called vigor - reach 0 vigor and you don't realize your intent for the scene.

All very meta. Just a thought experiment. Will probably be put on the back burner while I work on doing some app development and running a Demon game. Would run in almost the opposite direction as GMC WOD which is about quick and decisive resolution of individual scenes.

 

[pemerton]

Rather than levels with escalating numbers there would be thematic tiers of content that a play group could collectively choose to escalate to.

Doesn't 4e already do this?! (With a thin veneer of Gygaxian levelling painted over the top.)

 

[Campbell]

Doesn't 4e already do this?! (With a thin veneer of Gygaxian levelling painted over the top.)

My intent is to destroy that thin veneer - shred it to ribbons. It's basically an extension of how Neverwinter and Dark Sun modified the game's fictional position visa-vi character level. I would just go one further. If you can get the math right why ruin it by adjusting the underlying numbers? Instead if I got far enough in the design of the hack I would present creatures at various threat levels - minion, standard, elite, solo to represent the power disparity in the fiction. Of course part of my intent would be to test how important the sliding scale of seeing numbers grow larger matters to players psychologically rather than shifting fictional positioning. Still just a thought experiment.

It represents some ideas I've been mulling over in terms of presentation, fictional positioning, and game design. It's basically embracing what I see as 4e's valuable features, embracing Story Now play, and going one further wherever possible. It's definitely avante garde, but it's been fun to think about. It will probably be awhile before I have time to really sit down and think about it between school, developing a software development portfolio, and getting set to run Demon.

 

[pemerton]

It's basically an extension of how Neverwinter and Dark Sun modified the game's fictional position visa-vi character level.

When I saw you'd replied, but before I read the post, Dark Sun came to mind.

Sounds like a good project.