Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Ahnehnois]

My simple argument is that the party as a whole would be more effective if the fighter were replaced with a cleric or druid at pretty much any point across the level spectrum. The fighter's slight DPR and HP advantage is more than negated by the versatility that the divine casters have innately, only one facet of which is the ability to become comparable melee fighters if they choose to leverage their spells in that manner.

Yep, that's pretty simple. If one ignores that buff and summons take time to cast and don't last very long and can be dispelled and negated, cuts through the MAD issues and magic item distribution, and assumes that the fighter chooses no useful feats, it's probably true.

 

[N'raac]

At least for a minute or so as the lizardfolk imprisons himself, then the wizard abducts him somehow.

So this very secluded spot is within a 1 minute stroll (not a run, as I assume you don't want to attract attention, and not the faster pace one would use in lethal combat) of the village where you possess the lizardman?

I believe prestidigitation could change the wizard's smell.

I believe illusions change smells and Prestidigitation does not duplicate other spells. I also don't think frustrating a Scent special ability is consistent with the minor effects the spell accomplishes.

If you are referring to the fact that Invisibility ends if you attack someone, I would counter with the fact that the Wizard's soul is in the Magic Jar, and his body is reduced to comatose status. The Wizard is not attack from/in his invisible body, so the Invisibility spell would not know of the Wizard's actions in the Magic Jar

The jar and the soul are right there with the body. How does the spell "know" to turn the wizard visible when he cuts a snake rather than a rope? It's a pretty gamist concept, so I think it gets interpreted in that light. "The wizard" has made a direct attack.

Let's say DC 5?

Becomes DC 10 if I am 50 feet away, DC 15 if I am a hundred feet away, etc based on how scaling works.

DC 15 with a lot of Lizards rolling seems reasonably probable. But then we're back to how far away that secluded space within Magic Jar range actually is.

That is a good question, but the big D in the spell duration line indicates that the spellcaster can dismiss the spell, so the Wizard evidently retains, at the minimum, enough control over the Phantom Steed to dismiss it.

That D is in Web as well. Does it obey your commands, or can you simply choose to end the spell early?

Not if we're assuming the Polymorphed Wizard carried the lizardfolk away for a bit.

At least it's faster to cast - less chance for you to be heard.

I agree that XP can be gained from non-combat encounters, but do you gain as much?

Do PC's, as opposed to players, comprehend "XP"? Or is it a game proxy for training, trial by fire and an array of other factors that, eventually, result in advancement?

Given that the time spent possessing the lizardfolk will be a few minutes, ideally, I would hope nothing pops up just as the possession is occurring.

Ideally.

Magic Jar lasts for hours, so a bit of trial and error isn't totally out of the question.

Fly and Invisibility don't last as long, though. As long as you don't possess and vacate something that creates a stir, though, I think you're OK for time. However, if you have possessed a Lizardman, you also cannot see your body. And why does Larry Lizardman keep glancing up at the sky?

Yep, that's pretty simple. If one ignores that buff and summons take time to cast and don't last very long and can be dispelled and negated, cuts through the MAD issues and magic item distribution, and assumes that the fighter chooses no useful feats, it's probably true.

I think the other assumption is that we can use our spells in rapid succession and there will never be any reason we can't stop and rest whenever we feel like it.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Regarding Prestidigitation, it specifically says that it can clean or soil something. While it doesn't explicitly say it, it is demonstrable by the last sentence that either of those effects last indefinitely beyond the spell's duration until something else changes thm. Something that was cleaned would obviously get dirty again if mud got thrown at it, for example.

Cleaning or soiling something can most definitely change its smell. Since it's an actual change and not an illusion with a duration, I see no reason why it couldn't be used to effectively erase or otherwise change one's scent.

Kinda wish I could use it on my aunt so she wouldn't smell "soiled."

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think the other assumption is that we can use our spells in rapid succession and there will never be any reason we can't stop and rest whenever we feel like it.

Sure, my list is non-exhaustive. There's also the "gee I hope nothing happens to the spellbook/holy symbol/thing that I'm powerless without" factor. And if you're a divine caster, the whole business about maintaining your alignment and ethos and such. Lots of things.

 

[pemerton]

Dungeons and Dragons is a game about going into other people's houses, killing them, and taking their stuff because they have green skin and the party does not. Seriously, there is no way to advance in levels except by gaining XP, which are predominantly gained through combat.

What you say here may be true of mainstream 3E, though even within 3E there are ideas on how to frame combats as a source of XP outside the context of dungeon invasion (eg Heroes of Battle).

But I think as a generalisation about D&D play, even 3E play, you'd find plenty of people who don't think it describes their games.

that one would never pass the fighter's way, only that the chances of that happening in a timely manner are much lower than the chances of finding one though deliberate effort. Because you're essentially waiting around in a swamp for someone from a presumably secluded tribe to pass your way.

When the player of the fighter says that his/her PC is going into the swamp to capture one of the lizard folk, how does the GM decide whether or not s/he comes across one? That's seems to make a fairly significant difference to how the plan resolves itself, but I don't think there is a single standard answer to this question. Rules for tracking, and random encounters, seem to have some relevance, but I'm not sure they fully settle the matter.

I personally find this somewhat troubling, as it means that I, as a player, have very little idea what I'm getting into when I sit down at the table, and have to trust that the DM knows what he's doing.

Well that's pretty much of the essence of storyteller play, at lesat in its core examples.

 

[Campbell]

Sure, my list is non-exhaustive. There's also the "gee I hope nothing happens to the spellbook/holy symbol/thing that I'm powerless without" factor. And if you're a divine caster, the whole business about maintaining your alignment and ethos and such. Lots of things.

So your basic argument is that as long as I apply a significant amount of GM force spell casters are balanced? Who would have thunk?

 

[pemerton]

I think there are styles within these styles.

Sure. A module like White Plume Mountain, for instance, is clearly written with the "wargaming" style in mind, but important parts of it are not about the mechanics but about free roleplaying grounded in the PCs' fictional positioning (eg taking the doors of their hinges to surf down the frictionless corridor over the super-tetanus pits).

Are you interpreting “storyteller” as being a single, predestined storyline that all around the table are dedicated to acting out and moving to resolution (I hate to use “railroad as it’s a loaded term), with indie being lots of possible storylines, any one or more of which could resolve in any number of different ways?

I think that what [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] has said upthread is pretty spot on. If you look at a module like Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, which utterly supposes that the players will take the GM's "hook" at various points and jump through portals, agree to work with shady characters, etc, the whole assumption is that the players are along for the GM's ride. (In this respect I find the module to be true to the ethos of earlier Planescape adventures like Dead Gods.)

I have more difficulty with indie style, however I read this almost as a cross between the two, where there is a story (or many stories) to be told, but they are dictated by action resolution mechanics.

The motto for the indie style could be "players hook GM" rather than "GM hooks players".

The action resolution mechanics should dictate outcome, but the GM should have framed the situation such that whatever happens, it will be both dramatic and thematically relevant.

Why is this called "Indie"? Is it just a reference to independent game companies, sort of like "alternative" music? If so, it needs a better name in my opinion.

Agreed. Storytelling and Wargaming are much more intuitive. Plus, Indie implies this approach could never possibly be in a mainstream game.

Well, on The Forge the technical label for what I'm calling the "indie" style is narrativism, but that's a term which on ENworld gets used with a whole range of different meanings. The reason I used "indie" is because you're most likely to see this style put forward explicitly in indie-published games like HeroWars/Quest, Sorcerer, DitV, Burning Wheel, et al.

Is it possible in a mainstream game? Definitely, though certain traditional mechanical features of traditional fantasy RPGs can get in the way. Examples of that are coming up in the exchange between N'raac and [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], as the resolution of the PC's attempt to capture a lizardfolk starts to turn on minutiae like precise density of foliage, and of trees near the village, and how many gnats are around, and how likely the fighter is to stumble into a lizardperson, and the wizard's encumbrance when teleporting etc. In the indie style, on the (I think fair) assumption that a lot of this doesn't have much thematic significance, there would be mechanical devices for compressing the minutiae while emphasising the dramatically significant stuff.

A mainstream RPG which is fairly well-suited to the indie style is 4e D&D. I think 3E has more of the mechanical obstacles that I mentioned, but that's not to say it would be hopeless.

These are the players who, as the campaign reaches its crescendo, interrupts the GM’s half completed description of the Master Villain twirling his moustache as he begins his monologue with “Enough flavour text – I waste him with my crossbow!”

By default, I would associate this with storytelling style. In indie play, by default there would not be a monologue - there would be an exchange between PCs and NPC, potentially engaging the action resolution mechanics depending on whether the exchange involved conflict.

 

[Ahnehnois]

So your basic argument is that as long as I apply a significant amount of GM force spell casters are balanced? Who would have thunk?

I prefer to think of it as "as long as you have a completely inept DM spellcasters probably aren't balanced".

 

[N'raac]

Regarding Prestidigitation, it specifically says that it can clean or soil something. While it doesn't explicitly say it, it is demonstrable by the last sentence that either of those effects last indefinitely beyond the spell's duration until something else changes thm. Something that was cleaned would obviously get dirty again if mud got thrown at it, for example.

Cleaning or soiling something can most definitely change its smell. Since it's an actual change and not an illusion with a duration, I see no reason why it couldn't be used to effectively erase or otherwise change one's scent.

"Change", not "remove". After you have shower, does your dog growl at you, or is yours still that familiar scent of that guy who fills up the food dish? I don't think Prestidigitation's effects extend to "invisibility to the sense of smell".

So your basic argument is that as long as I apply a significant amount of GM force spell casters are balanced? Who would have thunk?

I prefer to think of it as "as long as you have a completely inept DM spellcasters probably aren't balanced".

And there you have it. Why isn't it "using GM force" to target fighters with effects requiring a Will save, have opponents who don't just stand there or close for melee to be chopped to bits, and can actually hit the fighter in all that armor and weather a couple of hits?

The motto for the indie style could be "players hook GM" rather than "GM hooks players".

I like that, but it only suggests storytelling from a different angle.

Examples of that are coming up in the exchange between N'raac and @Dandu, as the resolution of the PC's attempt to capture a lizardfolk starts to turn on minutiae like precise density of foliage, and of trees near the village, and how many gnats are around, and how likely the fighter is to stumble into a lizardperson, and the wizard's encumbrance when teleporting etc. In the indie style, on the (I think fair) assumption that a lot of this doesn't have much thematic significance, there would be mechanical devices for compressing the minutiae while emphasising the dramatically significant stuff.

I'm all for saying "OK, good plan, wizard/fighter kidnaps lizard - what now?" I'm not in favour of "OK, works for wizards but not for fighters."

By default, I would associate this with storytelling style. In indie play, by default there would not be a monologue - there would be an exchange between PCs and NPC, potentially engaging the action resolution mechanics depending on whether the exchange involved conflict.

Once I extract only the villain's speech - be it two paragraphs or two words - it's a monologue. Or does Indie play involve players and GM's interrupting each other so no one ever gets to complete a description, an idea or a thought?

 

[TwoSix]

I prefer to think of it as "as long as you have a completely inept DM spellcasters probably aren't balanced".

You say inept, I say playing by the rules. Pre 4e D&D works best when the DM goes off-book to a considerable degree. Some consider that showing DM skill, I consider it an unnecessary kludge.