Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

Minor tricks with severe limitations. It can flavour, so it can disguise taste, closely related to smell, so I’ll grant it could make its 1 lb limit smell, as well as taste, lemony fresh. It can clean, 1 cubic foot per round.
In which case, I would like my clean wizard. And since scent is due to chemicals you secrete that can be cleaned off...

I don’t see combat speeds as indicative of strolling speeds. A walk is one move action per round, a hustle is two. Is the Lizard hustling? That seems more likely to attract attention.

It is perfectly reasonable to hustle to relieve one's self, as the consequence of not doing so is a DC15 fortitude save vs severe embarassment.

On what do you base this argument? There is nothing in the spell description which resolved this, so once again we are back to interpretation. The wizard is undertaking an action which requires the target to make a saving throw. I call that an attack.
I am not disputing that it is an attack, but whether the Invisibility spell knows what is happening beyond the body the spell is attached to.

I am pointing out that nothing in the spell provides you the ability to order the steed around. It can be ridden by you or the person you designate in casting the spell. We have rules for riding – they are in the Ride skill. The rider directs the horse.
The Phantom Steed is " a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature", not a horse. It is a spell.

Again, is there a PC understanding of the metaphysics, or is this a metagame measure for in-game actions? Does a character losing a level due to an Undead attack know how many XP he lost, or that there has been a drain on his very life force? And which does he perceive casting a spell with an xp cost to have?
Call it what you will - life force, essence, etc - but the PC must understand that they have a resource they expend for several spells if those spells are to be used at all in the setting.

OK – now I’m waiting for the dog who perceives his master to treat him like a stranger after he takes a shower. Not an issue I am familiar with, I’m afraid. Maybe Cat 2 is afraid he's next for the bath...
I hope that you have not waited for too long.
 

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In which case, I would like my clean wizard. And since scent is due to chemicals you secrete that can be cleaned off...

As long as your wizard's sweat doesn't extend beyond a one-foot cube or you have several cubic feet's worth of cantrips ready, that's fine.
 



See, I would rule that "prestidigitation" is a cantrip, and while it can "clean" you it isn't as powerful as say, Invisibility, and wouldn't be effective against scent as a result.
 

In which case, I would like my clean wizard. And since scent is due to chemicals you secrete that can be cleaned off...

I think you vastly underestimate what it would take to remove your scent and keep it removed for any reasonable period of time. As humans, with a sense of smell that is as or less potent than BatSight, it's easy for us to underestimate that. The workings of Prestidigitation are also very undefined. We know a lot of things it can do, and a bunch it can't. But what do we do to get those things to happen? Given it's novice learning, I'd suggest it takes verbal and somatic components, plus a standard action, to make prestidigitation create a magical effect.

It is perfectly reasonable to hustle to relieve one's self, as the consequence of not doing so is a DC15 fortitude save vs severe embarassment.

In our culture. Is the same true of Lizardfolk? In 1825, no one thought anything of a horse leaving his business on Main Street. Maybe the Lizardfolk response to "Gotta take a dump" is "Me too" as his tail rises up, rather than a hustle off to a privy. And why is that Lizardfolk rushing away from the privy to take a dump?

I am not disputing that it is an attack, but whether the Invisibility spell knows what is happening beyond the body the spell is attached to.

I know what we're disputing - the spell description provides no indication of how the spell assesses the invisible person as having "attacked".

The Phantom Steed is " a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature", not a horse. It is a spell.

Yes, it's a spell - a conjuration spell. It's not a quasi-real illusion, nor is it an Evoked force effect. "Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands."

Is it a creature? Yes, the spell says so. Does the spell say it obeys your commands? No. It says one person, and one only, may ride it - you or the person you designate in casting. Would you like to provide some precedents for Conjuration (Creation) spells that create things over which you have long-term control? Many create something Instantaneously, which the rules indicate no longer rely on magic in any way for their existence.

Oh, look, Invisibility is also dismissable - can you decide to make a few coins visible, just for a moment, so you can secretly bribe someone, or does "dismissable" mean "can end the spell before its full duration expires"? I suggest the latter. Prestidigitation is not dismissable, and you control its effects throughout the spell, so I do not see the connection between "dismissable" and "remains under caster control" you seem to draw.

Call it what you will - life force, essence, etc - but the PC must understand that they have a resource they expend for several spells if those spells are to be used at all in the setting.

That's very different from being able to compute the number of dead orcs equating to a single casting of a specific spell.


It appears I will be waiting much longer. The poser of the question asks if she has washed her scent away. She also notes she has two other dogs for whom this has never been an issue. The response from the expert suggests a lot of possibilities, none of which involve the dog no longer recognizing the scent of the individual.

While we seem to have drifted far from the original topic, perhaps it's not as far as it may seem at first glance. We're discussing three spell interpretation questions, as I see it:

(a) Can Prestidigitation effectively alter or mask scent, making a person either disguised or invisible to creatures who sense by smell?
(b) Will Invisibility be removed if the person possesses a target (or otherwise launches an attack) from a source outside their body?
(c) Does the wizard retain the ability to command a Phantom Steed conjured for a rider other than himself?

All of your arguments favour the response which provides the greatest power and flexibility for the Wizard. So did CJ's. So, in my experience, do the interpretations of most people who complain that wizards are overpowered.
 

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], I'm not sure I concur that specific games become wargamer, storyteller or "indie" by their mechanics. I've certainly seen people on these boards lay claim to each of the three in D&D games, and it has certainly published rules comments and adventures supporting at least the first two. I don't know how one would publish adventures for the third, as it requires getting all the players on board for the themes and conflicts. It seems more three possible social contracts around the table.

I think indie, at least in many desacriptions I've heard, may trend to gamist, as well. The game provides resources for players and GM's to enforce their will on the scene, so management of these resources, rather than player consensus, seems to become the key to "getting your way". By classifying this approach as "indie", I think you restrict the ability of others to comment, as Indie games are less widely played. I do recognize Heroquest, but the games we have played are not managed by players directing resources to dictate the course of events, so I think that it can also be played in a storyteller or wargame model. And I don't think that's "doing it wrong" any more than playing a game of D&D where the agenda is set by all participants is "doing it wrong".
 

In our culture. Is the same true of Lizardfolk? In 1825, no one thought anything of a horse leaving his business on Main Street. Maybe the Lizardfolk response to "Gotta take a dump" is "Me too" as his tail rises up, rather than a hustle off to a privy. And why is that Lizardfolk rushing away from the privy to take a dump?
Let us just agree that the hygiene of lizardfolk and the existence of their privies are all up to the DM of the game, shall we.

I know what we're disputing - the spell description provides no indication of how the spell assesses the invisible person as having "attacked".

The spell does provide a description: casting spells on the enemy, stabbing them, etc does count, while loosening ropes, lowering a drawbridge onto someone, saying rude things, etc, does not.

Possessing someone is an attack, but I am saying that, since it does not take place in the body Invisibility is cast on, it should not end the Invisibility spell.

Let me put it this way: if an invisible Wizard possessed a friend's body (which is not an attack) and then attacks someone in that friend's body, does the invisibility spell on the Wizard's comatose body end?

Yes, it's a spell - a conjuration spell. It's not a quasi-real illusion, nor is it an Evoked force effect. "Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands."
I will invoke the "usually" part of that clause as it is not stated otherwise.

Is it a creature? Yes, the spell says so. Does the spell say it obeys your commands? No. It says one person, and one only, may ride it - you or the person you designate in casting. Would you like to provide some precedents for Conjuration (Creation) spells that create things over which you have long-term control? Many create something Instantaneously, which the rules indicate no longer rely on magic in any way for their existence.
If I could, would you concede that I might be right?

Oh, look, Invisibility is also dismissable - can you decide to make a few coins visible, just for a moment, so you can secretly bribe someone, or does "dismissable" mean "can end the spell before its full duration expires"? I suggest the latter. Prestidigitation is not dismissable, and you control its effects throughout the spell, so I do not see the connection between "dismissable" and "remains under caster control" you seem to draw.

In that case, I reiterate my previous point about that "usually, but now always" clause.

That's very different from being able to compute the number of dead orcs equating to a single casting of a specific spell.

What, in your opinion is reasonable for the PCs in game knowledge of XP?

Keep in mind we live in a world with knowledge of quantum mechanics.

It appears I will be waiting much longer. The poser of the question asks if she has washed her scent away. She also notes she has two other dogs for whom this has never been an issue. The response from the expert suggests a lot of possibilities, none of which involve the dog no longer recognizing the scent of the individual.
You will admit that it is a possibility that an animal which relies on its sense of smell to interpret the world treats people differently based on smell?

In any case, you have my roommate's story about her cats. For what that's worth. That is really all I can give you as someone who does not work with or study animals.

We're discussing three spell interpretation questions, as I see it:

(a) Can Prestidigitation effectively alter or mask scent, making a person either disguised or invisible to creatures who sense by smell?
(b) Will Invisibility be removed if the person possesses a target (or otherwise launches an attack) from a source outside their body?
(c) Does the wizard retain the ability to command a Phantom Steed conjured for a rider other than himself?
I would say that for point a, I am arguing that Prestidigitation can reduce one's scent so that one attracts less attention from natural predators. I am not arguing for invisibility to the Scent ability. The rules of the Scent ability do not allow weak odors to go undetected. However, an ordinary animal with scent but not Scent would be less likely to detect the wizard.

All of your arguments favour the response which provides the greatest power and flexibility for the Wizard. So did CJ's. So, in my experience, do the interpretations of most people who complain that wizards are overpowered.
In that case, let me ask you a question: What part of "I can use divination spells to effectively gather information over wide distances, teleport the party to distant lands, travel across planes, and cripple enemies in combat with the same build" requires interpretation? And at what point is that on par with what Fighters do? (Which, if you will remember, is why Wizards are seen as overpowered.)
 
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Let me first say right quick that the way the "wash your scent away" usage of Prestidigitation seems to be missing a bit of the mark on how it would interface with a creature's (in this case the Black Dragon) Scent power/feat. The dragon isn't familiar with you and therefore not familiar with your scent so Scent wouldn't be looking for your particular scent. Instead, the dragon would have an uncanny ability to distinguish various smells and likely especially in his lair. Therefore, in this case, the deployment of Prestidigitation vs Scent would be to eliminate the distinguishing characteristics of your scent versus the scents in the immediate environment; eg Dragon's Lair. You would want to "smell like the lair".

Now. Back to the "what in the world does Indie/Narrativist mean?" I'm going back to my "Roll the dice or say yes (or Say yes or roll the dice as common usage goes)" vs "Rulings Not Rules." Consider how the deployment of Prestidigitation vs Scent would be resolved in Dungeon World or 4e vs 3e and prior.

In Dungeon World, the Wizard is going to deploy the Cantrip Prestidigitation and make a move in order to accomplish this. This will basically be a Custom move version of Defy Danger (Roll + Int and get target number/s) that will have considerable success or a modicum of success. For instance, something like:

Prestidigitation makes me smell like the swamp, roll + INT: * On a 10 + choose 2. On a 7-9 choose 1.

- You smell terrible just like a swamp!...but the close proximity of the stink makes you constantly wretch! You take - 1 forward.
- Your ears pick up a sound of quiet, stirring down the corridor after you've said the words.
- Stopping to cast the spell now revealed a hidden, secondary tunnel that leads to another entrance into the lair.


The GM would then make A Move that Follows naturally from the evolving fiction (the players choice/s above, the tags - descriptors - of the lair/creatures).

Consider how it would be resolved in 4e. I would handle the location of the Dragon's Lair and the stealthy infiltration as a Skill Challenge. Depending on where we were in the Skill Challenge (how many Hard Checks need to be brought about) and how the player came about the Knowledge of the Dragon's Scent (did they deploy a truly powerful Divination Ritual like Consult Oracle or did they do research on this particular Dragon's legend and roll a successful History check?...both successes in the Skill Challenge), it would be Arcana vs an of-level, Medium or Hard DC. Depending on the reference point of the pre and post-resolution of this check (Success or failure?...where in the continuum of the Skill Challenge framework are we?...what has evolved within the fiction to this point?), something would happen afterward that takes everything into account that is similar to the above process of GMing Dungeon World. If that check was successful and the arbiter of ultimate success in the Skill Challenge, I would likely now frame the next scene of the player emerging into the Dragon's Lair, the great beast's head nestled against the shoreline of the water of its mire, its body full submerged. I would then describe the lair in detail and the player would cue me as to what they wish to do. If the check was the ultimate determinate of failure in the Skill Challenge, the Dragon's Lair would "come to life" greeting them in some nasty way (nasty hazard/trap, guardians/lair occupants, the dragon itself). If it was a micro-success/failure in the Skill Challenge, something would happen to complicate the fiction and the player would likely lose a Healing Surge on a failure...and we would play on until its resolved.

Contrast that with "Rulings not Rules": GM says

- "I don't think that would work because ______" and so it doesn't.

or

- "hmmmmm, roll (arbitrarily devised task resolution method vs arbitrarily devised contest number)" of which the GM is creating illusory mechanical resolution because they are going to force/impose the same result either way.

The aggregation of conflict/task resolution by the two different methods creates a very different experience overall at the table (for a myriad of reasons). People looking for different experiences (such as the above) will value different system components (eg; codification and transparent vs open-ended and opaque) and different techniques to move the fiction along. There is a large difference between system, technique, overall table experience between the two.
 
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Let us just agree that the hygiene of lizardfolk and the existence of their privies are all up to the DM of the game, shall we.

I return to the fact that your Lizardfolk claiming a need to use the privy (so much so that he's hustling at top speed), yet not heading in the direction of the privy (known to the other lizardfolk, but not to you) provides a reasonable probability to draw questions from the lizardfolk.

The spell does provide a description: casting spells on the enemy, stabbing them, etc does count, while loosening ropes, lowering a drawbridge onto someone, saying rude things, etc, does not. Possessing someone is an attack, but I am saying that, since it does not take place in the body Invisibility is cast on, it should not end the Invisibility spell.
It provides examples. From these, we need to interpret items less directly covered. For example, can I cast a Lightning Bolt or Magic Missile on my erstwhile "friend", or stab him with a dagger, without ending the effect because "he's a friend"? I'd say no, but one can interpret the spell to say yes. Similarly, the Magic Jar effect allows the character on whom the spell was cast to attempt to possess a victim, a direct spell effect we agree is an attack. So the question is whether the intermediary step of entering the Magic Jar voids the attack's cancellation of the invisibility spell. I say it does not. That's not the only reasonable interpretation, but it is one reasonable interpretation.

Now, I had initially envisioned the Jar being on the character's person. If not, we have to also assess the prospect it is discovered and moved/taken. I don't see any likely discoverer recognizing its significance, though.

Let me put it this way: if an invisible Wizard possessed a friend's body (which is not an attack) and then attacks someone in that friend's body, does the invisibility spell on the Wizard's comatose body end?

If you are possessing him, the question first becomes whether that is an attack, another matter for interpretation. In part, the question is whether it is the wizard's physical form that must initiate the attack, or whether there is a link to the invisible person's animating spirit. A good question. My inclination is to consider the second possessed person a separate entity for purposes of the invisibility spell, but to consider "possessing from magic jar" to remain an action of the caster of the magic jar, and thus capable of ending the Invisibility spell. As I said, I can see wider or narrower interpretations both being reasonable.

I will invoke the "usually" part of that clause as it is not stated otherwise.

I believe the clause refers to Conjurations in general, not Creations specifically, which is why I am looking for other spells of that subschool. My quick search did not locate a convenient list. Summon Monster spells, though not Creation, provide you can direct them beyond simple attacks only if you can establish communications. I'm unclear what language a "quasi-real horselike creature" speaks. That would again suggest it is directed by its rider through reigns, etc.

Summon Monster also specifies your control over the creature. Summon Swarm indicates you do not. I'm not seeing a preponderance of evidence for any specific default. Nor am I convinced the "usually" is a default rule rather than a survey of the spells existing when the statement was penned.


I don't believe the interpretation the wizard can, or cannot, control the Steed is definitively correct. This spell seems to create a third possibility, that sometimes you control it and sometimes you don't. That spell seems much more fleshed out than Phantom Steed. It also imposes some added requirements on the caster (like being 7th level to cast this 1st level spell). The spell itself is merely "the final spell in the process of creating a bogun", so it isn't exactly indicative of a typical spell. An extended magical ritual ending with this and two other spells is required (one being Control Plants, which seems more likely to provide control).

If this is the closest we can find to a Creation spell that grants control over the creation, it would cement, in my mind, that such control does not exist by default, and needs to be specifically indicated in the spell.

In that case, I reiterate my previous point about that "usually, but now always" clause.

I reiterate mine regarding the lack of clarity as to the breadth of that clause.

What, in your opinion is reasonable for the PCs in game knowledge of XP?

Precious little, realistically. It's a metagame concept providing a measure based on activities that are prevalent in-game to determine results which arise from a combination of background (like research and training) and in game (like overcoming challenges) to determine when the GM should reward the players with an enhancement to their characters' power. Loss of xp tends to be described as a loss or weakening of life force, but gaining levels doesn't have that same connotation. It is certainly not "I am within 16 xp of gaining a level, so let's stomp and crash around the wilderness to attract a wandering monster we can kill so I can gain my level".

Keep in mind we live in a world with knowledge of quantum mechanics.

One which can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the soul, where people are killed by falling in their kitchen yet survive plummeting from an airplane. The real world is much more random than game worlds!

You will admit that it is a possibility that an animal which relies on its sense of smell to interpret the world treats people differently based on smell?

In any case, you have my roommate's story about her cats. For what that's worth. That is really all I can give you as someone who does not work with or study animals.

So, we have one anecdote that your friend believes that one of her two cats treats the other differently after it gets bathed, and maybe that's because you/she think that the shower changes its smell. Not exactly the kind of persuasive evidence I would hope for, especially when the link you reference makes it pretty clear the expert doesn't think a shower changes scent enough to make a difference to a creature who uses its sense of smell as a primary tool.

I would say that for point a, I am arguing that Prestidigitation can reduce one's scent so that one attracts less attention from natural predators. I am not arguing for invisibility to the Scent ability. The rules of the Scent ability do not allow weak odors to go undetected. However, an ordinary animal with scent but not Scent would be less likely to detect the wizard.

I'm not sure where you perceive the rules providing some intermediate step between creatures with the scent ability (like dogs, who even get a bonus to track, so they're better than most creatures with scent, or like cats) and creatures whose sense of smell is, like ours, weak and pathetic.

In that case, let me ask you a question: What part of "I can use divination spells to effectively gather information over wide distances, teleport the party to distant lands, travel across planes, and cripple enemies in combat with the same build" requires interpretation? And at what point is that on par with what Fighters do? (Which, if you will remember, is why Wizards are seen as overpowered.)

I find wizards are commonly seen as overpowered on the basis they can do all these things reliably, without fail, simultaneously and generally well beyond the terms of the spells. Teleport is especially open to such "beyond spell" interpretations. "Hey, let's go to a distant land I have heard of" versus "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." (Teleport) and " you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location." (greater teleport).

Teleport is often merely a facilitator. We need to get to a far distant land in really short order to participate in the adventure. Luckily, the wizard had a Teleport spell, or we would have been months too late to defeat the enemy, or even participate in the adventure! Funny how this only happens when we have a wizard capable of Teleportation, or when we have access to some other means of Teleportation. If, instead, we must spend weeks or months travelling by ship or by horse, the urgency of accomplishing the next steps of the adventure are exactly the same than when we avoid that travel with a Teleport spell. The villain has never complete his agenda two days after our travels started, and long since moved on once we arrive.

And the typically forgotten aspect - you can't do all these things repeatedly, as the fighter can, so if the game does not (to use a much-maligned term) coddle the spellcasters by allowing them to go Nova in each encounter, then rest after one or two for a day so they can be fully reloaded, then they actually need to manage their resources, relying on teammates like the fighter who can keep delivering their combat abilities repeatedly.
 

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