Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[ImperatorK]

I prefer to think of it as "as long as you have a completely inept DM spellcasters probably aren't balanced".

How I run my games says nothing about the system's/spellcaster's balance.

 

[TwoSix]

Once I extract only the villain's speech - be it two paragraphs or two words - it's a monologue. Or does Indie play involve players and GM's interrupting each other so no one ever gets to complete a description, an idea or a thought?

Did you really just point out that a dialogue that removes the other speakers is a monologue? I also fundamentally disagree that any snippet of speech is a monologue just by removing the context. And I believe the idea that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is expressing is that, in general, the NPCs in indie/narrativist aren't there to enact their own sinister plot, thus removing the need for Evil Overlord style speechifying. The NPC exists only to provide a motivation for the PCs to struggle against. This can be a fairly shocking thing for world-building/simulationists DMs to consider, but that's how we roll in the narrativist mafia.

 

[pemerton]

Once I extract only the villain's speech - be it two paragraphs or two words - it's a monologue.

I don't really follow - are you talking about "extracting the villain's speech in reporting an episode of play after the event"? In which case I would say that it's not a monologue, but a report of one side of a conversation.

Or are you talking about "extracting only the villain's speech during play"? How do you do that - by telling the players that they can't speak yet?

Or does Indie play involve players and GM's interrupting each other so no one ever gets to complete a description, an idea or a thought?

I might ask my players to let me describe a setting to them, if that's relevant to framing the scene. But expounding a villain's monologue isn't completing a description - it's freezing the action!

I believe the idea that pemerton is expressing is that, in general, the NPCs in indie/narrativist aren't there to enact their own sinister plot, thus removing the need for Evil Overlord style speechifying. The NPC exists only to provide a motivation for the PCs to struggle against.

In my game, the "BBEG's" - Orcus, Miska, Pazrael, Torog etc - have sinister plots within the fiction, but at the table those plots are largely known by the players, as they have been defined in opposition to the PCs' goals as defined by the players.

There are subtleties - exactly what is Pazuzu up to in trying to free Miska? exactly what is Torog's plan for the soul abattoir? - but the players aren't going to learn that froma monologue. They need to know before the final confrontation, so that the stakes are fully established. If the stakes aren't known, play can't proceed properly because the players don't know how many resources they should devote to the struggle.

So I think I'm pretty much agreeing with TwoSix.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

"Change", not "remove". After you have shower, does your dog growl at you, or is yours still that familiar scent of that guy who fills up the food dish? I don't think Prestidigitation's effects extend to "invisibility to the sense of smell".

Considering cleaning something by its very definition means (among other things) removing unwanted dirt or scents and such, I'd say that Prestidigitation could definitely remove smells from the subject, at least enough to confuse an opponent tracking by scent but perhaps not become entirely invisible to scent unless it had been working for a couple minutes. It could also mask the subject by giving it an entirely different smell.

And do keep in mind the magical effect will almost certainly be far more thorough than a typical shower. I don't see how a spell and a shower


As far as the whole getting into a lizard's village goes, there are going to be mechanical differences between how one class can handle it versus another and some may not have any ability to do it at all. Is that a problem with the game itself, the situation at hand, or simply the storytelling? Is it wrong that one class might need some help from others while another class could do it entirely solo?

Let's just get rid of the minutiae of the lizard situation and boil it down to some certain mechanical facts. Due to the huge variety of spells at its disposal, a wizard is likely going to be much more versatile in a given situation than a fighter. However, both can be useful depending on the situations the DM presents as well as how the players have played their characters. If the player hasn't specifically played the character to be able to handle more situations then it might fall on the DM to add in certain things. Then again, it might also fall on the DM to say "I'm not sure I can do what you want here because your character doesn't actually have enough for me to work with." Or the DM might say "The only way I can see to get this to work is by giving you this incredibly unlikely scenario that I don't think you'll actually believe."

 

[MJS]

You say inept, I say playing by the rules. Pre 4e D&D works best when the DM goes off-book to a considerable degree. Some consider that showing DM skill, I consider it an unnecessary kludge.

That's fine, but its within the context of 40 years or so of DMing being held as a structured art. Your "unnecessary kludge" is an established, essential part of D&D, not just the opinion of some. It is, in the end, a matter of degree, and we are fortunate to have such a wide range of iterations on this sword & sorcery, level and class based game, and all of them widely available. Some say the 80's was the golden age of gaming, I say it may be right now! I haven't played 4E yet. There is a convention coming up, with RPGA DMs for both 4E and 5E, both of which I'm psyched to dive into. The only D&D edition missing in this convention is 2nd. I'll be taking a journey through D&D evolution, with a few stops in Battletech & Starfleet Battles. And hopefully, meet enough gamers to get a group going. If the group is good, its always a blast. Anyway, my revised solution is, the wizard player rolls a d30. If they roll a 17, the dragon's two juvie offspring are also visiting , just back from a trip down the coast. They are exchanging presents when the wizard arrives. Or, if the plan goes off, the two juvies will hunt our brave wizard for many years to come. And the wizard will probably need a fighter or two when the dragons arrive, most likely in ambush...

 

[Ahnehnois]

How I run my games says nothing about the system's/spellcaster's balance.

But some book of guidelines written by someone you've never met does?

 

[Ahnehnois]

You say inept, I say playing by the rules. Pre 4e D&D works best when the DM goes off-book to a considerable degree. Some consider that showing DM skill, I consider it an unnecessary kludge.

Belying this rather bizarre point, you do realize that everything that I alluded to above is in the rules, right?

 

[ImperatorK]

But some book of guidelines written by someone you've never met does?

Which book?

 

[Dandu]

So this very secluded spot is within a 1 minute stroll (not a run, as I assume you don't want to attract attention, and not the faster pace one would use in lethal combat) of the village where you possess the lizardman?

A one minute stroll is 10 rounds, or 300 feet at max, though trees, which I assume count as rough terrain.

I believe illusions change smells and Prestidigitation does not duplicate other spells. I also don't think frustrating a Scent special ability is consistent with the minor effects the spell accomplishes.

As has been pointed out, Prestidigitation is capable of changing smells.

The jar and the soul are right there with the body. How does the spell "know" to turn the wizard visible when he cuts a snake rather than a rope? It's a pretty gamist concept, so I think it gets interpreted in that light. "The wizard" has made a direct attack.

Well, I would argue that the spell (attached to the wizard's body) knows when the wizard's body is engaging in hostile action, but does not know when the wizard's soul, outside his body, is engaging in hostile action outside his body.

DC 15 with a lot of Lizards rolling seems reasonably probable. But then we're back to how far away that secluded space within Magic Jar range actually is.

Based on the spell, and geometry, the gem must be within 200 feet of the spellcaster and can affect something 100 feet away from it. Total radius, at maximum of 300 feet is possible.

That D is in Web as well. Does it obey your commands, or can you simply choose to end the spell early?

Ending it early is a command, is it not?

Web does nothing more than exist. The Phantom Steed is capable of doing more. Both spells are under control of the wizard; I am arguing that since that is the case, the wizard should be capable of ordering his Phantom Steed around.

Do PC's, as opposed to players, comprehend "XP"? Or is it a game proxy for training, trial by fire and an array of other factors that, eventually, result in advancement?

Well, XP is a component for some spells. If you cast too many Limited Wishes, for example, you will eventually be unable to cast them until you go kill some orcs.

I think the other assumption is that we can use our spells in rapid succession and there will never be any reason we can't stop and rest whenever we feel like it.

As we are talking about Clerics and Druids here, I should point out that the best melee Clerics use Persist Spell, while Druids have Wildshape and Animal Companions.

This is not possible at lower levels, though a Cleric still has the same armor proficiency as the fighter and 3/4th BAB. The Druid still has his animal companion, 3/4th BAB, medium armor proficiency, and a quartersaff.

You could probably get by in combat, and you have the ability to do more things out of combat.

"Change", not "remove". After you have shower, does your dog growl at you, or is yours still that familiar scent of that guy who fills up the food dish? I don't think Prestidigitation's effects extend to "invisibility to the sense of smell".

Actually, and you may find this interesting, my roommate tells me that if she bathes one of her cats, the other will treat it as a stranger and hiss at it for a while until the cat that was bathed regains its natural smell.

 

[N'raac]

Considering cleaning something by its very definition means (among other things) removing unwanted dirt or scents and such, I'd say that Prestidigitation could definitely remove smells from the subject, at least enough to confuse an opponent tracking by scent but perhaps not become entirely invisible to scent unless it had been working for a couple minutes. It could also mask the subject by giving it an entirely different smell.

I don’t see a 0 level spell with an array of different effects and a pretty decent duration masking or disguising the scent of a creature. That’s too big an impact considering how many creatures are significantly reliant on scents for perception. Clean and remove that three day funk? Sure. Make you invisible to a guard dog or bloodhound? Not so much. Trick the dog into thinking you smell like a baked potato? No, I don’t think so.

Minor tricks with severe limitations. It can flavour, so it can disguise taste, closely related to smell, so I’ll grant it could make its 1 lb limit smell, as well as taste, lemony fresh. It can clean, 1 cubic foot per round.

And do keep in mind the magical effect will almost certainly be far more thorough than a typical shower. I don't see how a spell and a shower

Why would a magical effect automatically beat the mundane? Acid Splash manages 1-3 damage, which isn’t as good as a vial of acid. Why would a much broader spell be able to readily beat a narrower mundane activity at achieving its purpose? It says “clean”, not “clean better than any mundane cleaning possibly could”.

A one minute stroll is 10 rounds, or 300 feet at max, though trees, which I assume count as rough terrain.

I don’t see combat speeds as indicative of strolling speeds. A walk is one move action per round, a hustle is two. Is the Lizard hustling? That seems more likely to attract attention.

Well, I would argue that the spell (attached to the wizard's body) knows when the wizard's body is engaging in hostile action, but does not know when the wizard's soul, outside his body, is engaging in hostile action outside his body.

On what do you base this argument? There is nothing in the spell description which resolved this, so once again we are back to interpretation. The wizard is undertaking an action which requires the target to make a saving throw. I call that an attack.

Based on the spell, and geometry, the gem must be within 200 feet of the spellcaster and can affect something 100 feet away from it. Total radius, at maximum of 300 feet is possible.

Agreed – you can move the lizard up to 100 feet from the Jar, and can cast the spell (and logically, then, return to your body) from up to 200’ away – but where did you leave the Jar before moving 200’ away from it? In any case, up to 300’ is the definite limit for your L10 wizard.

Ending it early is a command, is it not?

No, it is dismissal of the spell. You can end Magic Jar early by returning to your body, but you can’t Dismiss it.

Web does nothing more than exist. The Phantom Steed is capable of doing more. Both spells are under control of the wizard; I am arguing that since that is the case, the wizard should be capable of ordering his Phantom Steed around.

I am pointing out that nothing in the spell provides you the ability to order the steed around. It can be ridden by you or the person you designate in casting the spell. We have rules for riding – they are in the Ride skill. The rider directs the horse.

Well, XP is a component for some spells. If you cast too many Limited Wishes, for example, you will eventually be unable to cast them until you go kill some orcs.

Again, is there a PC understanding of the metaphysics, or is this a metagame measure for in-game actions? Does a character losing a level due to an Undead attack know how many XP he lost, or that there has been a drain on his very life force? And which does he perceive casting a spell with an xp cost to have?

Actually, and you may find this interesting, my roommate tells me that if she bathes one of her cats, the other will treat it as a stranger and hiss at it for a while until the cat that was bathed regains its natural smell.

OK – now I’m waiting for the dog who perceives his master to treat him like a stranger after he takes a shower. Not an issue I am familiar with, I’m afraid. Maybe Cat 2 is afraid he's next for the bath...