Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

Indeed. The new school approach I'd argue isn't that games emulate in-world phenomena, but that games don't bother and instead make sure that the outcomes are approximately right to match the source fiction or world, sliding straight over the phenomena and concentrating on outcomes. It's something shared by Fate, Fiasco, Feng Shui, and 4e.

Isn't that the basis of emulation, getting outcomes that match the fiction/reality of your sources? I mean, a careful model of the phenomena that regularly leads to an outcome that isn't plausible for the source is plainly not good at emulating that source.

That said, from the late 80s onwards? I'm going to cite GURPS.

I'm not sure I'd describe it as austere when in comparison with Traveller or Runequest.
 

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OK, I've heard of GURPS but in my mind had it earlier. I've got a copy of Man-to-Man or one of the similar early books on my shelf, and you've motivated me to go and check the publication date!

Corebook: 1986 for the first edition, 1988 for the third edition (which was the big one - there were piles of GURPS supplements coming out through the 90s). 2004 for 4e. Man to Man actually predates GURPS (1985) and was released as a preview of the then in playtesting GURPS and discontinued when GURPS was released as a thing on its own in 1986. Might be a collector's item.
 

Isn't that the basis of emulation, getting outcomes that match the fiction/reality of your sources? I mean, a careful model of the phenomena that regularly leads to an outcome that isn't plausible for the source is plainly not good at emulating that source.

Believe it or not, not always. A common form of emulation in RPGs (and the one people who talk about so-called disassociated mechanics care about) is the process-sim. Where you don't care about the outcome so much as that every bit of the action maps to something. The outcome isn't so relevant.
 

Going to try to field a few things right quick and answer with brevity:

My guess is that was because the roll was successful, but @Manbearcat can probably give you more information there. (My intent was: "I want to know if the Lord Chamberlain is directing these beasts against the people here.")
This goes to GM principles and role in conflict resolution as I outlined above. My responsibility is to heed player intent while observing fictional positioning, genre conceits, and the guidannce and constrains of the mechanics (resolution engine and PC build tool deployed). I think if you put all of those things in the hopper, that I faithfully resolved the situation in accords with those things. The "possessed" flesh golem was either incapable of defending itself (eg leveraging the Court Mage's powers) against the troll onslaught or he didn't attempt to (thus willingly giving its covert plot up). If he was incapable of defending himself, then it seems likely that he was impotent in using magic to set the beasts (dogs, troll) against the people there. I would let the players make their deduction.

To the extent that the player was able to infer the truth of their intent from the resource deployed and the fictional positioining surrounding the situation, I would hope they were satisfied. If not, it would be discussed at the table for clarify. In a PbP it makes such exchanges difficult.

Given our discussion is supposedly framed around answering the question of balance between spellcasters and nonspellcasters, but in a broader sense balance between characters, your comments above lead to a fairly obvious (in my view) question - do some skills (which I expect are linked to certain types of characters) lend themselves to broader application, thereby granting characters who would normally focus on those skills a greater, broader and/or easier means of influencing the narrative? The two skills which leap to mind are Arcana and Religion, which would be the two skills associated with the major spellcasting classes. Meanwhile, your examples seem to relegate my knowledgeable Bard to the sidelines in that three of your four "Don't be stupid!" examples relate to knowledge and Performance skills. The fourth would be Religion, where you have indicated a different use might easily be successful.

You also noted you specifically wrote in elements which would provide Sheadunne the opportunity to use his major skill, Nature. This doesn't seem like a technique unique to Indie gaming, but simply a tool designed to allow each character their time in the spotlight, highlighting their special skills. Presumably, a similar approach wold be adopted to provide opportunities for the knowledge-based Bard. By writing in challenges suited to being addressed by the warrior's skills or abilities in a 3e game, do we not effect balance in a similar manner? I don't think designing scenarios, scenes and challenges with the specific abilities of the various PC's in mind is a unique innovation of Indie games - it's a standard GMing technique which has existed for as long as RPG's have existed.

[MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION], just going to try to address a few things here right quick:

1) You posited that it is impossible to have a social conflict not escalate to violence under this model. I believe that I provided one from my home game in this thread (amongst many others I could break out...I just had one in the Abyss with a demon [!] in my homegame); the PCs requesting aid from the clan of Rangers and being rebuffed. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] provided one and has a few floating about on these boards.

2) You asked if some skills seem better than others. I think that is highly dependent upon the style of game and challenges run. I run a considerable number of skill challenges, including exploration, combat, and social. I would say that I'm not sure that there are "apex" skills that are demonstrably more versatile than the others. However, (and others can comment with their own anecdotes), from an open/broad descriptor perspective, I find that the Heal and Thievery Skills suffer the most. Their utility is definitely contracted with respect to all of the other skills. I think it might be interesting to do a post on the functional utility of each of the 4e Skills from an open/broad descriptor perspective.

3) The 4e Bard definitely doesn't suffer from contracted options in dealing with situations. They would definitely be able to resolve Theron's plight with the dogs from both a symmetrical perspective (take or give the blow) and from an assymetrical perspective (eg; Dungeoneering to notice the compromised load bearing of the pillar and undo it such that it interposes itself between the dogs and the servant girl). Bards gain Arcana + 4 skills, have a broad swath of skills, gain an encounter power that gives them + 5 to Diplomacy, have + 1 to all untrained skills, can take multilple (big bang for the buck) multiclass feats (giving them multiple trained skills that they wouldn't have access to otherwise), easily qualify for Jack of All Trades (+ 2 to all untrained skills), and they're a primary Cha/secondary Int/Con/Wis class (which gives them considerable base functionality in a broad swath of skills).

4) I wonder if you partook firsthand if this would be an easier conversation. If you'd like, we can easily contrive a fictional positioning to your liking (obstinate chamberlain in a very formal Court setting), I can compose a character for you if you give me an archetype and you and I (+ another player if they would like to be involved) can do a quick complexity 1 Social Skill Challenge. If you'd like to do that and you think it would be instructive, let me know. It would be trivially easy to accomplish.
 

At level 37, the player of an arcane spellcaster can essentially kiss his character goodbye if a credible enemy gets within reach.
How in the world does an enemy without magic get within reach of someone invisible, perfectly silent, flying, ethereal, astrally projected, protected by repulsion, contingency spells keyed to enemies getting within reach, gated-in angel bodyguards, who can predict the future...?
 

How in the world does an enemy without magic get within reach of someone invisible, perfectly silent, flying, ethereal, astrally projected, protected by repulsion, contingency spells keyed to enemies getting within reach, gated-in angel bodyguards, who can predict the future...?
Who said without magic? A level 37 fighter is assumed to have a commensurate level of wealth. And, realistically, artifact-level magic and probably other resources (allies, divine favors, weird unique special abilities, etc.). Or blow some of those 37 levels on ECLs and pick up some magic that way. Or multiclass (BAB is maxed at 20th after all). Just because he doesn't have any magical abilities for his main class doesn't mean he doesn't have any magic.

I mean, if you treat epic fighters like Neverwinter Nights: HOTU and assume that they are just 1st level fighters with higher attack bonuses and hit points, then yes, they're not going to function well. But an actual D&D character at that level works fine.
 

Indeed. The new school approach I'd argue isn't that games emulate in-world phenomena, but that games don't bother and instead make sure that the outcomes are approximately right to match the source fiction or world, sliding straight over the phenomena and concentrating on outcomes. It's something shared by Fate, Fiasco, Feng Shui, and 4e.

I'll chime in agreement here. I'd also note that this has the added advantage of permitting much more transparent genre-sim than the old way. This doesn't necessarily include the emulation of the story structure, either.
 

Who said without magic? A level 37 fighter is assumed to have a commensurate level of wealth. And, realistically, artifact-level magic and probably other resources (allies, divine favors, weird unique special abilities, etc.). Or blow some of those 37 levels on ECLs and pick up some magic that way.
All that is presumably just as available to the 37th-level wizard, so I figured it was a wash, and that it was their differing class abilities that would be relevant.

Or multiclass (BAB is maxed at 20th after all).
But if the argument is "a 37th-level fighter can keep up with a 37th-level wizard if the fighter is also actually a wizard", then maybe their class abilities are a wash too, so, yeah, I guess they would be pretty evenly matched.
 

Just one other thing right quick. The PCs [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION], [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION], [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] did precisely what they're supposed to do in the PBP we performed. They observed PC principles; advocate for your PCs by way of the thematic material embedded in your PC, heed the evolved fictional positioning, and faithfully observe genre conceits. All 4 of them were great. If they would have tried to "stay on script" (eg do not escalate the social conflict at all costs), it would have defeated one of the primary purposes of our play: to show how conflict resolution (dynamically) handles 1 (of many dozens of configurations) obstinate chamberlain scenario. We weren't just exploring the dynamics of augmented Diplomacy (Charm) versus mundane Diplomacy.

Along the lines of the initial query however, what is interesting to note is that Thurgon's Diplomacy (which came into play but failed due to fictional positoning debuff on Thurgon - lack of respect for his authority - and an unfortunate die roll) and Quinn's Suggestion (Arcana for Diplomacy) are both + 19 under normal circumstances (when NPCs request Thurgon's authority as Knight Commander of the Iron Tower:..and if they don't, his Intimidate is buffed to 21). If roles had been reversed and Thurgon had used his Diplomacy with the War Council (where Quinn used Suggestion), he would have had an auto-success (Medium DC 20).
 

Summary of PBP

I'm I was going to write out a long drawn out post talking in detail about the experience in regards to the questions and ideas presented in this thread, but it became too much. For the sake of simplicity I'm just going to bullet list a number of things that struck me.

Personal Background
  • I have limited exposure to 4e (A few games in the beginning and some reading along the way)
  • I have limited exposure to "indie games" (I have played a few MWP one-shots and have read DW, BW, Fate)
  • For the last 10 years or so I have played in or ran numerous 3x and PF games and I ran one long 2 year CoC game)
  • I primarily view the DMs job as maintaining the story integrity (not in rules arbitration)
  • I primarily view the players job as having their characters take actions that further the story (not in playing their characters)
  • I think there's a balance inequity in regards to narrative influence in 3x between casters and non-caster usually represented by fighter/wizard

Impressions
  • There appeared to be a mechanical and narrative balance between the wizard and fighter (example: Theren and the dogs and Quinn and the troll. Both rolled a single die to determine success and both influence in the narrative as a result).
  • 4e lent itself to the play style mostly through the use of rolls, which not all abilities in 3x have.
  • 4e has very little support for narrative mechanics but more than 3x. It is difficult to divorce 4e combat mechanics from the powers to make them entirely narrative in function. (example: Theren and the guards in the transition scene. This worked because of the play style not because of the 4e power itself. The intent was to push back the guards, not to injure them, which wasn't really possible using this particular 4e power nor maybe any. Is there a way to focus only on the effect and not on the damage?)
  • This play style does not appear to be a default for 4e and I felt primarily only worked because of a) single dice rolling mechanic and b) [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s practiced technique and ability.
  • 3x is even less than ideal for the play style (Multiple rolling mechanics or none at all. Very little in the way of narrative influence in feats and abilities).
  • There seemed to be a lack of downtime to reflect. It is difficult to tell if this was a result of the play style, the nature of the PBP, 4e itself, or that the scene might have only taken an hour or two at the table. Personally I'm not sure I would be able to maintain that pace at the table. It is difficult to tell though based on the single scenario.
  • I enjoyed focusing on player intent which I feel often gets lost in my own 3x/PF games, but I worry that story gets lost as a result (Example: The focus on Lucann and the Dryad rather than the city and dragon). This might be because we ended the scene rather than continued, but it didn't look like the other players were focused on the big goals (Quinn was willing to fall off the cliff, Lucann seemed focused on saving the Dryad, and Thurgon seemed focused on saving his companions). I worry that the play style focuses too much on character and too little on story. This might be because it was a forced scene rather than organically developed over the course of 12 levels of play. Keep in mind that this is simply in regard to my own preferences and not a default issue with 4e or the play style. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] certainly kept the scene shining toward the bigger goals (although if the dragon's appearance had happened before Thurgon and Theren had jumped down to the garden, would they have jumped?)
  • I certainly felt there were techniques available to the play style that lend itself to a good RPG experience for someone with my particular tastes. I don't think encounter based design of 4e gets me there. I'm not entirely sure 24-hour based design (3x) does either for that matter.
  • I think I would be willing to give it another go, but not as a PBP experience. I feel that without a good Table Top experience it would be difficult to know if my issues are really issues and not just poor reflection.

Anyway, those are some initial thoughts. I'm sure I didn't cover everything, but it's a start. Also when I talk about story, I suppose I'm talking about the bigger plot. The story of the game over the story of the character. I don't want people to think that I don't view Lucann's scene with the Dryad as non-story. It was a lovely story, but not as important to me (another player at the table) as the game story (saving the city and defeating the dragon). It felt like it should have been shuffled off to a transition scene rather than a focus of play.

That's all for now.
 

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