Fireball vs. Wind Wall

[reanjr]

Since Wind Wall affects certain magical effects, and fireball isn't mentioned in any specificity, I'd probably have it affected, though the spell description only states that it is deflected upwards, not that the object moves directly up. So I'd let it travel in its current direction but be deflected an equal number of feet up into air. If this deflection is greater than 20 feet, then it is harmless, though lower amounts would still hit the ground. For simplification, you can reduce the ground radius of the fireball by 5 ft. for every 5 ft. it went upward.

As far as RAW, I think it is certainly implied that the fireball would go right through. I just think it makes for a better game if it is deflected. Rewarding players for out of box thinking is always good.

 

[Praeden]

Since Wind Wall affects certain magical effects, and fireball isn't mentioned in any specificity, I'd probably have it affected.

Since only gaseous spell effects are affected, and fireball isn't a gaseous spell effect, I don't follow your reasoning. Furthermore, the fact that fireball isn't mentioned is a strong argument against fireball being affected. You don't seriously expect them to list all the spells that aren't affected do you?

though the spell description only states that it is deflected upwards, not that the object moves directly up. So I'd let it travel in its current direction but be deflected an equal number of feet up into air. If this deflection is greater than 20 feet, then it is harmless, though lower amounts would still hit the ground. For simplification, you can reduce the ground radius of the fireball by 5 ft. for every 5 ft. it went upward.

Considering that the bead can travel more than 1000 feet instantaneously, you might not see much vertical deflection as it passed through the Wind Wall anyway. Don't forget that a light, fast-moving object could have comparable momentum to a slower, heavier object like a boulder, and hence also be unaffected. Not necessarily relevant when talking about magic, but seeing as you are thinking about a vector treatment...

As far as RAW, I think it is certainly implied that the fireball would go right through. I just think it makes for a better game if it is deflected. Rewarding players for out of box thinking is always good.

Okay, house ruling it is another matter. I guess it all comes down to whether you're willing to treat the bead as a normal missile.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I guess it all comes down to whether you're willing to treat the bead as a normal missile.

Yep.

My argument was that the bead doesn't do anything, movement or speed-wise, that an arrow fired from a composite longbow can't do. It's merely the fact that it explodes when reaching its destination (or coming into contact with a "material body") that differentiates it from a bead fired from a really powerful slingshot. As such, it should be treated so by the Wind Wall spell.

Clearly, others believe that the very fact that the bead has been created by a spell is enough to disqualify it from being a "normal missile," and therefore it is exempt from the effects of passing through the Wind Wall.

 

[TheBaron]

Fireball VS. Wind Wall

I for one enjoy innovative uses of spells. I think creativity is part of magic, However there is a fine line when you try to keep everything balanced.

By standard core rules and arguable house ruling. The answer to this Debate is yes and no for both.

Core standards
Wind Wall is described as a barrier & wall. The force of wind is enough to produce a solid barrier effect. Up to effect of deflecting incoming objects some partially others totally. The bead of a fireball is physically tangible otherwise it would not impact upon solid objects

Yes cause solid object meets semi-solid object. requirements sufficiently met.

No because this requires DM comes up with a house rule on how to handle the effect of this innovative use. This can lead to problems in setting precedence for many more uses as well as opening up a chain of other innovative uses.

House ruling standards
Force/sonic magical or natural can produce same effect as a solid object. Thus powerful wind produces a wall like effect
I would argue for fireball spells component Bat Guano is giving the bead it's solid nature.

Yes- cause solid object meets semi-solid object. requirements sufficiently met. Use is not out of balance. Both spells are in 3rd level respective range and the wind wall spell does not make fireball worthless, just more challenging.

No-For same reason as above no ruling.

Saying yes opens up how to handle the effect. I would categorize fireball with the same rating as "any other normal ranged weapon". I would require a ranged touch attack with the 30% miss chance. A miss whether to hit or by miss chance resulting in the fireball being deflected upwards. I would subtract height of the wall from distance of the spell to verify where it explodes.

Ex. target is 100ft away. Wall is 50 ft in front of target & 30 ft high.(caster 5th) Hits wall at 50ft travels 30ft up and continues 20 ft to reach it's 100ft range limit and explodes 30ft away from target radius of ball is 20ft and misses target by 10ft.

Course wizard could target destination further away or move up and possibly negate a wind walls effect. Depending on how smart wizard is or how strategic the wind wall person is.

Well Thats all time I have for now.
The Baron~

 

[Jeff Wilder]

My argument was that the bead doesn't do anything, movement or speed-wise, that an arrow fired from a composite longbow can't do.

Of course it does. For one thing, it can fly hundreds of feet without a range increment. For another, it can somehow thread its way through a grand melee without the need for any sort of attack roll or check for detonation.

The only way that the fireball bead differs from any other spell is that it has a special effect that allows it to get past line of effect rules in certain situations.

 

[dvvega]

For another, it can somehow thread its way through a grand melee without the need for any sort of attack roll or check for detonation.

Umm it can't thread its way out anything. It must be targetted as in "I send the bead to that square" and if anything is in the way ... boom!!

So any melee in the way will cause a permature explosion.

D

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So any melee in the way will cause a permature explosion.

That's not true. A melee is not a "solid body." A melee no more blocks fireball than it does line of sight (or line of effect) for any other spell, unless there's a house rule otherwise.

 

[Praeden]

That's not true. A melee is not a "solid body." A melee no more blocks fireball than it does line of sight (or line of effect) for any other spell, unless there's a house rule otherwise.

Precisely. If it doesn't block line of effect, it can't affect the movement of the bead.

As for the bead being a normal missile, no-one (apart from jeff) seems willing to discuss the range issue. My wizard can send this thing 920 feet away, instantaneously, without having to consider range increments, or make an attack roll. If he fires his longbow or throws his dagger, these things come into play. Anyone want to tell me why all these missiles fall into the same category?

 

[Praeden]

Yep.

My argument was that the bead doesn't do anything, movement or speed-wise, that an arrow fired from a composite longbow can't do.

Can an arrow fired from a composite longbow travel over 1000 feet without a range increment? Sorry to keep harping on about it, but this part of my argument keeps getting ignored.

Clearly, others believe that the very fact that the bead has been created by a spell is enough to disqualify it from being a "normal missile," and therefore it is exempt from the effects of passing through the Wind Wall.

No, if someone would counter my range argument, I'd hop over to your side of the fence quite cheerfully.

 

[KarinsDad]

Core standards
Wind Wall is described as a barrier & wall. The force of wind is enough to produce a solid barrier effect. Up to effect of deflecting incoming objects some partially others totally. The bead of a fireball is physically tangible otherwise it would not impact upon solid objects

This is a poor assumption on your part.

The bead of a fireball can be intangible and detonates on impact because of magic, we don't know.

The bead of a fireball could be magic and not physical at all and detonates on impact because of magic, we don't know.

But, to say that it is definitely "physically tangible" is an assumption not based in the rules.