D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

Soooo, to get into the weeds here, only Shia Muslims belive the Caliph needs to be a Sayyid, die to their belief in an inherited mantle of infallibility. Some other sneliebe the Caliph should be a Hasemite, abroader category than descendent of Muhamed, ut historically a lot of recognized Caliphs are not (the Ottomans, in particular). It really just means the recognized head of the Dar al-Islam.

But for Greyhawk, it just means the leader has levels in Cleric, as there is no Islam in Baklun. It isn't specified which Baklunish deity that the Caliph of Ekbir serves in 1980/1983 (open to correction @Snarf Zagyg ), but I think later it becomes "canonically" Al-Ackbar who was noy on the dwity liat for the box ser, who is an ascended Human (which is kind of Yikes, no wonder it's not in the DMG).

I think it is fundamentally a mistake to associate Latitude coordinates with what is being gone for with cultural comparisons here, because again, these are not 1-to-1.

2024 Greyhawk chose to continue the technical terms from reallife Islam. The update from an earlier "caliphate" to an other "sultanate", conveys a cultural sensitivity that invites reallife Muslim players to enjoy the Greyhawk setting.

Because of these reallife references to the Islamic religion, including Sharia law relating to Islamic governments, the details are of a highly sensitive nature. Note, to use the watchword "Allahu-Akbar" (Al-Ackbar) to refer to a polytheistic religion, or even an idolatrous object, would be astonishingly offensive.

Western Flanaess explores fantasy Islam.

In my own games, I represent diverse monotheistic factions as worshiping an infinite transcendent Divinity that is beyond any plane of existence, any multiverse, any concept, any thing. The Deity is everywhere and no "where" to be found. However in the Celestial planes of the Astral Plane, there can be "angels and saints" who are in unity with with the Divinity. Divinity requires Humanoids to use their gifts to make this world a better place, thus all the game rules including Divine magic work normally. I also use the Positive Energy Plane to represent immanent aspects of Divinity, thus ethically emphasizing wellbeing and healing. My Muslim friends (Lebanese and Turkish) are fine with this, and sensitivity consultants can doublecheck it for various Muslim traditions.

In the context of D&D, religious traditions are "factions".

Elemental figures, as well as Fey figures, generally equate to jinn (djinn), moreorless nature beings with humanlike freewill. A point in Islam is, the transcendent Divinity created them and humans must not worship them.

The fantasy version of Islam should avoid the term "Islam". But it would draw inspiration in a way that is fun for reallife Muslims.

 

[Parmandur]

2024 Greyhawk chose to continue the technical terms from reallife Islam. The update from an earlier "caliphate" to an other "sultanate", conveys a cultural sensitivity that invites reallife Muslim players to enjoy the Greyhawk setting.

Because of these reallife references to the Islamic religion, including Sharia law relating to Islamic governments, the details are of a highly sensitive nature. Note, to use the watchword "Allahu-Akbar" (Al-Ackbar) to refer to a polytheistic religion, or even an idolatrous object, would be astonishingly offensive.

Yup, for the best 100%, the sensitivity readers and more diverse design tram of today is no doubt helping here.

Al-Ackbar in OG Greyhawk, just to be clear, is actually an individual human person who ascended to God head, not even one of the Greater Baklunish deities (because they are polytheists). He was bamechecked in a pair if magical items in the 1E DMG, that later got expanded into a Baklunish figure after Gygax.

Other cultural elements of the Baklunish to consider how to view:

- their costs of arms mix abstract symbols with Arabic or pseudo-arabic script called "Baklunish Script":

- The Baklunish have a calendar based on an ancient, originally unspecified, Hegira or pilgrimage, another Arabic element:

 

[Voadam]

D&D Greyhawk traditions from 1980 on portray Baklun as somewhere in Asia.

Mostly what we have from the 1983 boxed set is the ruler and kingdom name types such as Sultanate, Caliphate, Padishah, and a bunch of Khan variations for the horse warrior peoples. Also a group of Baklunish called the Paynims. And the accompanying art example.

Plus the Baklunish ethnicity specifications:

I'd say out of Asia stuff it is evoking a fantasy Middle East to the 'Stans to Mongolia. Specifically not the Far East or Russia or Southeast Asia. For Asian Muslim stuff it is also not really Mughal India and not Indonesia or any other SE Asian Muslim majority type place.

For wargaming and narrative theme purposes you have fantasy medieval Islamic world bordering fantasy medieval Europe type of a setup without either Islam or Christianity.

Specifically the Baklunish are polytheists with an entire unique Baklunish specific pantheon with no specified supreme ruler of the pantheon. So sort of fantasy pre-Islamic polytheism as a model or just mixing and matching loosely Medieval Islamic world fantasy tropes to a D&D polytheism.

 

[Yaarel]

There are Muslims in Baklun, but not all of Baklun is Muslim. For example, Wegwiur and Chakyik have Baklunish origins but are Nonmuslim. (Even when 1980 employs the terms khan and tarkhan, these too are Nonmuslim.) Baklun is Asia, not a name of a religious tradition.

I am confident, 2024 Greyhawk will discontinue the reference of "sultan" and "pasha" to polytheism. In the DMs Guide, none of the "gods of Greyhawk" refer to Baklunish. There is a mention of "temples" in Western Flanaess, which strictly speaking would Nonmuslim, but if used in popular sense for a building for people to pray, it might refer to a mosque. There are many different kinds of religions in Asia, and Hindu and Daoist styles of polytheism are presumably there too. In any case, I am sure the sultan and pasha will be some kind of fantasy monotheism.

With regard to the Sultanate of Ekbir, its coat of arms can correspond central Asian Muslim-majority nations. With regard to the script, notice that this is the Persian language of Iran.

Both Kazakhstan and Tajikistan borrow from the Arabic script from the Quran, tho they also borrow the Cyrillic and Latin alphabets.

@Voadam, in your page image, I notice "the town of Antalotol" might refer to Anatolia, namely a location for fantasy Turkiye Ottoman Empire, or perhaps a pre-Islamic Anatolia, for places like Troy. However, Anatolia is mountains, and its coasts are internationally significant. It is probably better to under stand the town as if "New Anatolia" far from the original, thus relating to the Pasha of Tusmit.

 

[Yaarel]

Heh, I know for me, D&D "gibberish Norse" is annoying misrepresentation. Occasionally problematic. I imagine D&D players from Saudia, Turkiye, Khazakhstan, and elsewhere feel the same way about D&D gibberish Arabic or other language.

Think about it. Do Spanish-speaking D&D players want to look at D&D gibberish Spanish? Probably most dont.

Fantasy English terms are in normal English. The same applies to fantasies about other cultures as well.

 

[Yaarel]

Al-Ackbar in OG Greyhawk, just to be clear, is actually an individual human person who ascended to God head, not even one of the Greater Baklunish deities (because they are polytheists).

The D&D human person who "ascended" seems to borrow from the Shii Islam of Iran.

In Iran there is a tradition of a "Twelveth Imam" (the Mahdi), who is said to have been "hidden" by God, with his life extending until being revealed again before the day of judgment. Until then, there are many accounts of him visiting in dreams, and helping develop personal inner spirituality. Pragmatically, in the absence of an authoritative imam, Shia argues that the jurists of the Sharia legal system are the ones who are responsible for running the government. Hence, the doctrine for an Iranian theocracy: altho an Islamic government lacks infallibility without the return of the imam, it still has a divine mandate to prepare the way for the arrival of the imam.

In this way, Gygax "Al Ackbar" suggests a fantasy version of the Persian Iranian ethnicity. Of course, saying "Allahu Akbar" with regard to a human is a nonstarter. I am sure 2024 Greyhawk decisively discontinued it.

Judging by google searches for "Al Ackbar", it seems to lack traction among Greyhawk fans anyway.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Judging by google searches for "Al Ackbar", it seems to lack traction among Greyhawk fans anyway.

It's a trap!

 

[Parmandur]

There are Muslims in Baklun, but not all of Baklun is Muslim. For example, Wegwiur and Chakyik have Baklunish origins but are Nonmuslim. (Even when 1980 employs the terms khan and tarkhan, these too are Nonmuslim.) Baklun is Asia, not a name of a religious tradition.

There...have been a lookout of Muslim Khanates and rulers with Khan titles....the Ottoman Emperor was "Khan of Khans", among other titles.

Again, it isn't one-ti-one anywhwre and they are explicitly polytheistic...juat like the Bishops of the Oerdian areas...but the "this is a Middle Eastern equivalent" is all over.

 

[Parmandur]

The D&D human person who "ascended" seems to borrow from the Shii Islam of Iran.

In Iran there is a tradition of a "Twelveth Imam" (the Mahdi), who is said to have been "hidden" by God, with his life extending until being revealed again before the day of judgment. Until then, there are many accounts of him visiting in dreams, and helping develop personal inner spirituality. Pragmatically, in the absence of an authoritative imam, Shia argues that the jurists of the Sharia legal system are the ones who are responsible for running the government. Hence, the doctrine for an Iranian theocracy: altho an Islamic government lacks infallibility without the return of the imam, it still has a divine mandate to prepare the way for the arrival of the imam.

In this way, Gygax "Al Ackbar" suggests a fantasy version of the Persian Iranian ethnicity. Of course, saying "Allahu Akbar" with regard to a human is a nonstarter. I am sure 2024 Greyhawk decisively discontinued it.

Judging by google searches for "Al Ackbar", it seems to lack traction among Greyhawk fans anyway.

Shia Islam, and even Twelver Shia, are originally Arabic movements with strong roots in Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc. The Twelfth Imam was a Sayyid from Egypt.

Iran being the center of modern Shia Islam is something of a strange accident of history, due to to the Tumurids (who were Shia Turks and Mongols).

Which is mainly relevant as a caution against being overly restrictive with how one reads these correspondences...not only are they nit 1-to-1, the historical reality is a shifting maelstrom of influences.

 

[Yaarel]

Again, it isn't one-ti-one anywhwre

Unless there is correspondence with reallife culture, the result of D&D will become White American ethnocentrism surrounded by recycling racist cartoons.

Failing to deal one-to-one, is why early fantasy went wrong, and why early D&D went wrong, and why Greyhawk went wrong.

Unless one seriously engages Romani, one ends up with the highly problematic "Rhennee".

It is necessary to have reallife culture in mind − from reallife points of view. Even when these are fantasy versions of a culture, the cultures referred must feel comfortable with the resulting representations.