D&D General How do players feel about DM fudging?

[Vaalingrade]

The dice don't care about the game. A good DM does.

Go Fudge.

 

[Maxperson]

Based on what I've read of your posts, I never would have assumed that you did... but...



...this is where our philosophies diverge, I will let that TPK happen if that's where the players' choices and the dice have taken things. To me and my players that's simply part of the game. One of my regulars always smiles at the prospect of a new character - "I hate losing my current guy, but I love making new ones... so I'm torn!"

And the cycle continues.

I don't mind that philosophy in a DM. To me it's just a different style of DMing, like Sandbox vs. Linear. My issue isn't with divergent styles. It's with being depicted as cheating(it's not) or abusing my authority(it's not) when talk about how I fudge the way I do.

 

[Hex08]

It can be positive. If done right and infrequently it can help keep a game engaging and entertaining. I've had GMs who fudged when I was a player and I have fudged as a GM and it's never been an issue. I've also had GMs who never have and I have run some games where I don't.

Whether it's a published adventure or one created by the GM, sometimes bad design decisions happen and fudging allows a GM to fix those issues on the fly. Sometimes it's about player expectations - when I run a Call of Cthulhu game part of the fun for my players is going insane and dying but for other games it's not looked at quite the same.

 

[Musing Mage]

I don't mind that philosophy in a DM. To me it's just a different style of DMing, like Sandbox vs. Linear. My issue isn't with divergent styles. It's with being depicted as cheating(it's not) or abusing my authority(it's not) when talk about how I fudge the way I do.

Gotcha. I certainly don't want to come off as attacking you personally. The bug in my craw about fudging the game comes from my experience with Adversarial DMs, and more commonly: self-proclaimed 'storytellers' who will see the players through their scenarios come hell or high water!

I simply got to the point where I become intolerant of it. The moment I know there's any degree of fudging, a pall is cast over the whole thing for me. On the flip side, it has made me want to be scrupulously fair and open with my own players so they never feel that I'm fixing things for (or against them).

 

[TheAlkaizer]

The bug in my craw about fudging the game comes from my experience with Adversarial DMs, and more commonly: self-proclaimed 'storytellers' who will see the players through their scenarios come hell or high water!

I've definitely been guilty of that in my first years of DMing. I recently watched a video by Questing Beast that very succinctly and elegantly phrased the lesson learned. "DMs should create situations, not plots". It feels bad to create a storyline to be played through and have the group go elsewhere. It feels awesome to create a situation and discover how they make their way through it.

 

[Gradine]

Depends on the reason. We're primarily here at our table with our extremely limited free time to have fun. "Fun" doesn't always mean we win or have it easy, but you know what else isn't fun? Whiffing at a single monster for nearly an hour because the GM refuses to tweak the math. Or, you know, just say "okay, you won." Which is its own type of fudging.

That said, I'm much less positive on fudging to increase the difficulty of an encounter. If excellent planning or sheer luck cut an epic encounter short? Take the L. That can be it's own kind of fun, and those are definitely the stories we retell each other the most.

 

[Helldritch]

Depends on the reason. We're primarily here at our table with our extremely limited free time to have fun. "Fun" doesn't always mean we win or have it easy, but you know what else isn't fun? Whiffing at a single monster for nearly an hour because the GM refuses to tweak the math. Or, you know, just say "okay, you won." Which is its own type of fudging.

That said, I'm much less positive on fudging to increase the difficulty of an encounter. If excellent planning or sheer luck cut an epic encounter short? Take the L. That can be it's own kind of fun, and those are definitely the stories we retell each other the most.

Yep, when I play monopoly or pay day or any other game; I love to win. But I don't always do. My wife loves to win too and it shows. Sometimes, you win, sometimes, you don't.

In D&D it means that sometimes the story will be continued the next week. Sometimes, it means the villains won the day and new heroes will be needed to stop them. Fudging prevents the next heroes to be born.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

Depends on the reason. We're primarily here at our table with our extremely limited free time to have fun. "Fun" doesn't always mean we win or have it easy, but you know what else isn't fun? Whiffing at a single monster for nearly an hour because the GM refuses to tweak the math. Or, you know, just say "okay, you won." Which is its own type of fudging.

I mean, if this does happen then, yeah, just cut it short and say "Sorry guys, I think this one was a bit overtuned." But it's not something that should be happening frequently. If you have this situation every other session and have to fudge the rolls not to bore your whole group then that's an entirely different issue.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I don't fudge now because when I first started playing D&D, my first DM was an enthusiastic fudger and pantser, and frankly, it sucked not feeling like anything I did in the game actually mattered.

 

[Lycurgon]

I think that there are some important things for everyone to remember regarding Fudging. The DMG talks about fudging and gives advice about it. So it is part of the game and cannot rightly be called cheating. If the game says it is a tool the DM can use IT IS NOT CHEATING.

BUT, and it is a BIG but (I like them, I can't lie) you have to consider what the DMG actually says about fudging, basicly: Don't do it too often and don't let your player know you are doing it.

So while it is not cheating, it is advised it will likely lessen the players enjoyment of the game if they know you do it.

So, now on to my personal opinion on the matter. I think that if it is going to lessen the players enjoyment, then it is not worth doing. As a Player, I want to know that I have a fair chance of succeeding, not being given an easy win. And even if the DM only fudges when things are going to badly, it means that things will never go truly bad and it will be an easy game even if it appears like a challenge. I want a DM that doesn't fudge. Luckily I have several great DMs that don't fudge.
As a DM, I want to give my players a good game and I want my players to trust me, so I am not going to undermine that by fudging.

But, I know other DMs have other opinions. For those DMs, it is a legitimate part of the game, the DMG supports you. So do whatever you are comfortable with.

 

[Flamestrike]

Makes me feel like I'm on a railroad. Very negative. Don't like it. Why bother rolling if the GM is going to change the results to fit their pre-written story?

As a DM, I often roll the dice (then feign a concerned look on my face, and pretend to look something up, and shake my head ominously) and dont even look at the result.

The dice are a tool, not just a random number generator.

 

[overgeeked]

If you want to tell a story, go write a novel. If you want to play a game, roll some dice to see what happens next. RPGs are not novels. RPGs are not movies. RPGs have emergent story, not predefined plots with a set beginning, middle, and end and rails preventing any possible deviation. Games have agency; stories do not.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

As a DM, I often roll the dice (then feign a concerned look on my face, and pretend to look something up, and shake my head ominously) and dont even look at the result.

The dice are a tool, not just a random number generator.

That's not fudging though. Most DMs I've known will ask some random rolls of players to hide some real perception rolls, or roll some fake rolls to hide the real ones. It does not lead to any of the aforementioned consequences.

 

[Charlaquin]

Some kinds of fudging are an abuse of authority. Others are not. I do not fudge to favor either myself or the players. In the extremely unlikely event that A) the players made no bad decisions, B) the players are having extreme(not just plain ole) bad luck, and C) I am having extreme(not play ole) good luck, I will fudge a bit to allow them a fighting chance at survival. A TPK should not happen due to extreme die luck. That's not an abuse of authority. That's just good DMing.

I don’t think it’s bad DMing, but to me, extreme luck is part of the game. It’s what allows the game to organically take turns no one expected, which for me is one of the most appealing parts of the game. That doesn’t mean it’s inherently wrong, but it is wrong for me.

 

[Charlaquin]

The dice don't care about the game. A good DM does.

Go Fudge.

The dice not caring is exactly why I use them. If the situation isn’t appropriate to resolve by way of uncaring number generators, then I don’t think dice should be getting rolled in the first place.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that there are some important things for everyone to remember regarding Fudging. The DMG talks about fudging and gives advice about it. So it is part of the game and cannot rightly be called cheating. If the game says it is a tool the DM can use IT IS NOT CHEATING.

BUT, and it is a BIG but (I like them, I can't lie) you have to consider what the DMG actually says about fudging, basicly: Don't do it too often and don't let your player know you are doing it.

So while it is not cheating, it is advised it will likely lessen the players enjoyment of the game if they know you do it.

This is, in my opinion, the absolute worst piece of advice in the DMG. If you feel like you have to hide something, it’s a sign you probably shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. You’re literally doing something the players wouldn’t like if they found out. That’s not cool.

 

[Helldritch]

As my old DM and sensei once told me:" There is a time to roll, and a time for adjudication. It is your job as a DM to know when the dice should not be used and when they should." That was almost 40 years ago and it still rings true even today.

As for the fudging in the DMG... these pieces of advice must come from a dedicated fudger....

 

[TheSword]

As I said in the other thread, if I was one of the many very strident anti-fudgers posting in this thread who are also DMs I would want my players to see how very anti-fudging I am. “Sure [Insert Previous Posters Here] Fudging is really bad I don’t know how some DMs have the brass balls to do it. shame on them’”

On the other hand. As Shakespeare would say “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” if you know what I mean.

I’m not saying I do it, but I strongly believe there is no moral divide between adding a couple of hp so the monster gets an extra round than there is deciding that reinforcements arrive (or don’t arrive when you intended them to). Come to think of it, what is legendary resistance other than sanctioned fudging. It is impossible for players to know whether those 4 orcs that came in from the next room were supposed to or not, without the players reading the DMs notes… which definitely IS cheating.

If a DM decides the game is dragging and cuts several foes/rooms/perhaps an entire AP chapter from the game is that fudging? Or is the DM expected to run every single encounter that has been written down - either by them or the AP they’re running, even if it makes the game less fun

Its also worth noting that DMs make mistakes, either through missing things or not having time to complete stuff. If a DM creates an advanced monster and increases size and weapon attacks but forgets/doesn’t have time to increase saves and ability stats. It’s only in combat that they realize they haven’t chosen saves to increase. So if they do that on the fly in the game when a player casts a spell, is that fudging or just finishing off game prep. What if the DM has only selected a handful of spells for a caster and decides on the fly they also have a common wizard work that wasn’t written on the page?

Are DMs that wing it and ad lib furiously, cheating all the time by default?

The whole game is an illusion from start to finish. Complaining that fudging is somehow shockingly bad is very funny to me. It seems indicative of an adversarial Player v DM relationship. They same as when I see forum posters use the phrase ‘DM may I’.

Trust your DM. Go along for the ride and stop seeing it as them and us. I’m glad to see as many people are ambivalent/positive about fudging as seem to loath it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Come to think of it, what is legendary resistance other than sanctioned fudging.

I mean, legendary resistance has a set number of uses, and typically you announce when you’re using it. You don’t have to hide it from the players, because it’s not something they would be upset to find out that you’re doing.

 

[TheSword]

I mean, legendary resistance has a set number of uses, and typically you announce when you’re using it. You don’t have to hide it from the players, because it’s not something they would be upset to find out that you’re doing.

It’s intentionally ignoring the dice rolls a number of times to prolong the encounter. The only difference is that it was written down somewhere that this could be done.

Presumably you have decided how many uses that creature has. Nobody know apart from you right? Unless the players are looking in the MM and holding the DM to account for the number of times written there?