How many sneak attacks?

[Nail]

Good, but ducks the question: Does the subject suddenly "regain his Dex bonus" during your full attack?

Don't worry about the flat-footed or flanked part. We got that figured out.

Example: Middle of battle, rogue stats round invisible, next to opponent. Does said rogue get all of his attacks (a full attack) as sneak attacks?

 

[RigaMortus]

Now, once the hidden or invisible rogue attacks, she becomes visible to the defender. However, while the defender is still denied his dex bonus, the rogue is making all attacks as sneak attacks. Visible or not.

Well technically wouldn't that negate all sneak attacks then? As soon as you attack (not after) you become visible, right? How is this "attack" defined? Is it defined as one single melee (or ranged) attack? Or is it defined as a full-round attack (in which case, you could get multiple attacks)?

 

[KarinsDad]

Good, but ducks the question: Does the subject suddenly "regain his Dex bonus" during your full attack?

Don't worry about the flat-footed or flanked part. We got that figured out.

Example: Middle of battle, rogue stats round invisible, next to opponent. Does said rogue get all of his attacks (a full attack) as sneak attacks?

The Rogue only gets one sneak attack if the conditions change.

For example, if the Rogue is hiding or invisible, his first attack changes the conditions to "no longer hiding or invisible" and the target regains his Dex bonus.

This is no different than a Rogue hitting an opponent with an attack, knocking him unconscious (which changes the conditions), and then attacking a second time against a Prone target (+4) who is denied his Dex bonus (unconscious) and the Rogue suddenly gets his Sneak Attack, even though the first attack was not a sneak attack.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

There are other situations wherein a defender's status will change between the attacker's iterative attacks. A spell storing weapon, for instance, can strike a foe on the first attack, Hold him, and thus lower the defender's AC for any remaining attacks. The defender does not get to hold off on being Held until the attacker's interative attacks are over. Likewise, a monk can stun a foe with his first strike, then hit him several times thereafter, taking advantage of the lowered AC.

That said, I see no reason why it shouldn't work in the reverse. Once he makes his first attack, the rogue's status changes from hidden/invisible (+2 to attacks, defender loses dex bonus) to not hidden/visible. And at that point, he loses the benefits of his previous status.

 

[Master Psion]

Example: Middle of battle, rogue stats round invisible, next to opponent. Does said rogue get all of his attacks (a full attack) as sneak attacks?

The answer is yes. In this example, the defender is surprised by the attacking rogue. During the surprise round (and until the defender's turn in initiative order) the defender is flat-footed and is denied his dex bonus. The defender does not instantly regain his dex bonus until it is his turn in initiative order.

From the SRD:
HOW COMBAT WORKS
Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:
1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The answer is yes. In this example, the defender is surprised by the attacking rogue. During the surprise round (and until the defender's turn in initiative order) the defender is flat-footed and is denied his dex bonus. The defender does not instantly regain his dex bonus until it is his turn in initiative order.

Master Psion, take another look at Nail's post. We aren't talking about flatfooted or surprise. The debate is regarding a change in status in the middle of the attacker's round. Say, for example, that it's Round 8 of a combat, and a rogue reads a scroll of Invisibility then moves over next to his enemy. On his initiative in Round 9, he lets loose with a full attack. The question is, are all of his attacks sneak attacks, or just one?

 

[Master Psion]

My apologies. Now I'm on the same page. I'm still looking up to see if there's anything stating whether or not the defender would get his dex bonus in the middle of the attack. My guess would be that the defender would become flat-footed against the rogue due to the invisibility and therefore would lose his dex bonus until his next turn.

RigaMortis... I looked back on the invisibility spell and it states that the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. We've always played that the person becomes visible after the first attack, regardless if it's a single attack, ranged, or a full attack. All of the attacks that the rogue could make in that round would still be sneak attacks even though he would be visible after the first attack was made because the defender is still flat-footed.

 

[Camarath]

As I read the rules, rogues could get their full attack after a sucessful hide/invisibility. I'd be happy to change my mind if someone could site a passage.

I will try to explain my view of the rules citing the appropriate rule sections.

From the SRD under the spell Invisibility

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.

The spell states that its effects end immediately if the target attacks. This includes any attack that is a part of any action. The spell does not say that the effect remains until the end of the action that included the attack.

From SRD under Full-Attack

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

You take multiple attacks in a Full Attack action. The spell states that when you attack its effects ends immediately. I see no reason why an effect that ends during an action would remain in effect until the end of that action.

From SRD under the skill Hide

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. ….
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. ….
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

It seems clear that the rules do support attacking from hiding, at least in the way laid out in the skill.

Well technically wouldn't that negate all sneak attacks then? As soon as you attack (not after) you become visible, right? How is this "attack" defined? Is it defined as one single melee (or ranged) attack? Or is it defined as a full-round attack (in which case, you could get multiple attacks)?

I believe that the spell ends during your attack not before or after. I think that one gains the effects of the spell during the attack.

 

[Dursk Starkfire]

Camarath,
I believe everybody is in agreement that invisibility ends after the first attack, irregardless of whether it is contained within a full-round attack. I think what is being questioned is whether the defender remains flat-footed from being attacked by an invisible opponent. I guess this would bring up the concept of having surprise rounds within rounds of combat.

If you consider that the defender is completely unaware of the invisible rogue, then combat could be technically considered to not have begun between the two. The defendent would probably be allowed spot/listen checks to see if he notices the invisible rogue before being attacked, and if he is unaware, the rogue should get a "surprise" round in the midst of combat. The problem with this is that it gets very difficult to administer multiple initiatives for multiple characters, and how to you judicate a surprise round in the midst of combat? Does the rogue get penalized with a standard action despite other combatants having a full round action available?

Let's take the following scenario: (Rogue init 24, Fighter init 12, Barbarian init 8). The Rogue (R) and Barbarian (B) are on the same side and are hiding out (invisible) in an alley for any inopportunistic travellers in order to relinquish their wealth.

surprise round:
BR F
R does nothing
B does nothing
F has no clue and walks beside R thinking that

round 1:
BRF
Rogue sneak attacks Fighter at full-attack bonus. R is visible after first attack. Following attacks apply sneak-attack damage as F is flat-footed (due to initiative). Fighter draws weapon and smacks R once. B moves into position and attacks F once.

round 2:
RF
B
R realizes he's in trouble, and leaves combat (3 rounds)
F attacks B (full-attack)
B attacks F (full-attack)

round 5:
F R
B
R drinks potion of invisibility and returns to combat (4 rounds)

round 9:
FR
B
R is not smart enough to flank with B, but moves into position to attack F.
F fails listen and spot checks, is unaware of R.
F attacks B (full-attack)
B attacks F (full-attack)

round 10:
R attacks F (full-attack) and becomes visible on first attack.

Now, is F considered flat-footed as he was unaware of his opponent, and thus denied his dex bonus? Or, does he instantly realize that he has an opponent, despite not having his initiative come up?

Thanks,
Dursk

 

[Camarath]

surprise round:
BR F
R does nothing
B does nothing
F has no clue and walks beside R thinking that

F cannot act in the Surprise Round if he is unaware.

Now, is F considered flat-footed as he was unaware of his opponent, and thus denied his dex bonus? Or, does he instantly realize that he has an opponent, despite not having his initiative come up?

Thanks,
Dursk

F would not be flat-footed because he is still in combat (with B) and it is not before his first regular turn in the initiative order (in round 1). Being attacked by an invisible opponent that one is unaware of does not make one flat-footed. For there to be another Surprise Round combat would need to end completely and that did not happen in the example you gave.