How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[KarinsDad]

Even if they are looking for a fight, the party can't possibly see everything, and initiative determines who acts in what order.

Except in round two when they CAN (effectively) see everything. You seem to have a good for the goose, not good for the gander attitude concerning round one and two.

If someone is approaching the king, the guards most certainly will be checking him out. They might even step in front of the king.

Not necessarily if the guy was within 30 feet of the King when initiative was rolled. In that case, if he wins init, they cannot step in front of the King first.

Granted, it's not impossible to move 60 feet and attack while everyone else is still flat-footed, but it isn't a given if you have surprise.

And I disagree that an extreme example illustrates the point. An extreme example merely illustrates an exception to the norm. An extreme exception.

You mean like the fact that someone could move 90 feet (30 feet in the surprise round and 60 feet in round one) before anyone else on the opposing side can react.

These examples I am giving, however, are not that extreme with respect to time and distance (they were only extreme with regard to number of allies). 60 feet or 90 feet before anyone else can react can happen quite easily in the game.

But 60 feet of movement and an attack (and a flat-footed attack at that) without anyone reacting when all of your opponents are aware of you beforehand should be impossible.

 

[Parlan]

You are talking surprise round here where your opponent uses the crowd to hide while he approaches. I am talking round one.

Does it still seem likely that he can run 60 feet down the same street when:

a) it is not crowded and
b) you are watching him

You ever lifeguard? Sure you're looking at the pool the whole time, but it's awful hard to keep your concentration up for that long. (Double especially when you're a guard on duty for hours at a time)

You win init, you were paying attenion, just like you thought.
you lose, well, you THOUGHT you were paying attention, but I guess your mind wandered.

 

[ThirdWizard]

But 60 feet of movement and an attack (and a flat-footed attack at that) without anyone reacting when all of your opponents are aware of you beforehand should be impossible.

Then go over to House Rules and make up a rule that you can live with. There's no point in arguing your point here.

 

[brehobit]

Then go over to House Rules and make up a rule that you can live with. There's no point in arguing your point here.

Actually, I think there is a question: When does initative start? Can PCs cause it to start before the baddies show up?

 

[ThirdWizard]

When the DM says "roll initiative" of course.

 

[KarinsDad]

on the whole 30 dex not helping in combat if you lose the init. If you don't go on the first round with a 30 dex, Then I would be very suprised. On average a 30 dex rogue with no feats would get an initiative of 20.

A 30 Dex is extremely hard to get in the game (e.g. a 16th level Elf who started with an 18 Dex, only bumped Dex, and gets Gloves of Dexterity +6).

But the chances of a 10 Dex character beating a 30 Dex character is 11.25%. One time in nine, the 10 Dex character wins, even if the 30 Dex character is looking right at him and expecting an attack.

So, one combat in nine, you would be very surprised.

 

[KarinsDad]

You ever lifeguard? Sure you're looking at the pool the whole time, but it's awful hard to keep your concentration up for that long. (Double especially when you're a guard on duty for hours at a time)

You win init, you were paying attenion, just like you thought.
you lose, well, you THOUGHT you were paying attention, but I guess your mind wandered.

We are talking short periods of time here. Like when the party is about to open the dungeon door or the 20 minutes that they are negotiating within the Thieves Guild and it seems dangerous to them to have a dozen armed men standing around them.

I agree that keeping this up for hours is not reasonable.

But, if you can keep your concentration for the rounds 2 through 10 of combat, you should be able to keep your concentration for the 12 seconds before combat actually starts. IF, you declare to the DM that you are about to do that.

 

[atom crash]

Not necessarily if the guy was within 30 feet of the King when initiative was rolled. In that case, if he wins init, they cannot step in front of the King first.

Again, if he gets within 30 feet of the king without tipping off the guards, then the guards aren't very good at their job. Or the assassin is very good at his job. The guards can always move between the king and the guy approaching before combat starts. Just like the assassin can approach the throne before combat starts. You seem to assume that everyone is standing around woodenly until the surprise round happens. I'd think that guards who see someone appraoch their king would naturally shift into defensive position. It's standard practice. Roll an opposed skill check right then, and let initiative (or the surprise round) follow. The king (and his guards) demands that anyone approach the throne slowly, head bowed, as a proper supplicant. Or better yet, the guards accompany him to the proper position to address the king. Anything else, and the situation isn't being played properly. And any such example doesn't illustrate the point.

Except in round two when they CAN (effectively) see everything. You seem to have a good for the goose, not good for the gander attitude concerning round one and two.

Before combat begins, the party expects a battle, but it may or may not actually happen. They are pumped on adrenalin but trying to stay cool, because they don't want to jump the gun. They keep searching for a threat to materialize, but they don't want to outright attack people who aren't intent on attacking them.

Ever been playing hide and seek outside at night? You think someone might be hiding in that toolshed out back, and you're for them to jump out when you approach, but it still scares the bejeesus out of you when they do jump out.

But when the battle is joined, they know who the enemy is and where they are. Except in the first few seconds, when the element of surprise is tstill in effect.

Nope, I don't see a contradiction.

 

[atom crash]

But, if you can keep your concentration for the rounds 2 through 10 of combat, you should be able to keep your concentration for the 12 seconds before combat actually starts. IF, you declare to the DM that you are about to do that.

If your DM allows the rogue to surprise attack you without giving you a chance to spot or sense the attack coming, then you're getting screwed. You should cut and paste some relevant sections of the SRD and give him a nice Word document gift..

 

[Saeviomagy]

KarinsDad... are you going to address peoples points here, or just keep stating over and over again that you don't like the rules?