HP are still king?

[Sir Brennen]

I'm more scared that 4e will scale so well, they you won't be able to really notice a difference between the combat on 1st and 21st level.

Just because hit probablilities between combatants of similar level stay roughly the same, you think you couldn't tell the difference? The 21st level battle is the one with flying combatants, fireballs and lightning bolts, and pools of lava... in short, the character abilities and challenges they face will distinguish various levels of play, not their "to hit" probabilities. I really don't understand the concern here...

 

[Mad Mac]

I'm pretty sure that among the fighter's bag of tricks will be powers to reduce damage, negate attacks, etc. Ditto for the paladin, with extra nimbus-o-light special effects.

You can never have too many nimbus-o-light special effects. The possibilities are endless.

Bring me a beer, woman!

Paladin Utility power 1
Encounter
Effect: You issue a divine challenge for the barmaid to bring you a tasty mug of beer. A shining nimbus of light connects from your wallet to the targeted barmaid. While the challenge is in effect, attempting to serve other customers will give a -2 penalty on tips. Targetting another barmaid or going to another inn will instantly break the effect.

 

[Sir Brennen]

You can never have too many nimbus-o-light special effects. The possibilities are endless.

Bring me a beer, woman!

Paladin Utility power 1
Encounter
Effect: You issue a divine challenge for the barmaid to bring you a tasty mug of beer. A shining nimbus of light connects from your wallet to the targeted barmaid. While the challenge is in effect, attempting to serve other customers will give a -2 penalty on tips. Targetting another barmaid or going to another inn will instantly break the effect.

That's it. I'm making a paladin of Dionysus for my first 4E character.

 

[fuindordm]

So... my basic point is just this. You can't think about hit points without thinking about armor class, and vice versa. Neither one means much without the other, because what really matters is expected damage per round, and they both factor into that about equally. A low hit point character with high AC is doomed sooner or later, and a high hit point character with a low AC runs out of hit points very quickly.

Yes, this makes sense. I guess I'm just wondering how far characters can push themselves to one extreme or the other.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[Warbringer]

It doesn't quite work out that way, as you do not get your Ref bonus (if you have one, such as the rogue: +2) to AC, only to your actual Ref score.

Stupid level of complexity

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I've ran several games of 4e now and I've found the fighter and the paladin difficult to hit, in exactly the proportion I'd expect and prefer for first level characters. Keep in mind too that their AC is going to raise +1 by level 2, without adding any magic or anything, and the threats won't be raising by much, seeing as we are all already throwing monsters of level 1 to 5 at them.

Fitz

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yes, this makes sense. I guess I'm just wondering how far characters can push themselves to one extreme or the other.

This mostly hinges on "The Math". You have to understand that numbers are WAY more heavily controlled in 4e than they were in 3e. If you were a 15th level party, it was almost as likely to encounter a creature with +10 to hit as it was to encounter a creature with +40 to hit. So, in one encounter the fighter who had an AC of 37 was near indestructible. In the next, he was suddenly rather easy to hit. Plus, it was just as likely to encounter an enemy that made touch attacks or area of effect attacks and bypassed your armor entirely.

Whereas, if you make the numbers much closer together, a small difference means a lot.

If all of the creatures from levels 10-20(and I'm not saying this is accurate) have between +11 and +16 to hit and you have an AC of 25. You know that almost every monster you fight has at least a 40% chance of missing you with attacks against AC. If your AC increases by just 2 points, you've given yourself a 10% miss chance against all attacks.

If you have an AC of 25 and your ally has an AC of 22, you essentially take 15% less damage than him. Each number means a lot more.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Yes, the fact that the hit/miss ratio doesn't quickly devolve to an auto-hit/auto-miss situation is a GREAT selling point for 4E.

In the party, the heavily armored types ought to still be more difficult to hit than the lightly armored types. . . without the light armors getting auto hit all the time, and the heavy armors almost invulnerable to normal attacks. . . which is the way it is today.

 

[KidSnide]

This mostly hinges on "The Math".

If all of the creatures from levels 10-20(and I'm not saying this is accurate) have between +11 and +16 to hit and you have an AC of 25. You know that almost every monster you fight has at least a 40% chance of missing you with attacks against AC. If your AC increases by just 2 points, you've given yourself a 10% miss chance against all attacks.

If you have an AC of 25 and your ally has an AC of 22, you essentially take 15% less damage than him. Each number means a lot more.

Actually, the difference is much more. A character with an AC of 22 is hit 60% of the time by a +13 attack, while a character with an AC of 25 is hit 45% of the time by the same attack. Although the numbers "differ by 15%", the AC 25 character is actually hit 25% less often.

As the opponents get weaker, this effect increases. A character with an AC of 22 is hit 30% of the time by a +7 attack, while a character with an AC of 25 is only hit 15% of the time by the same enemy. In that case, the character with the higher AC takes half the damage of his companion against those weaker enemies.

This is, of course, the joy of minions. One at a time, defenders can probably ignore them, but if they have some sort of swarm benefit to increase their attack bonus, they can quickly make themselves dangerous.

 

[Cadfan]

If you have an AC of 25 and your ally has an AC of 22, you essentially take 15% less damage than him. Each number means a lot more.

Actually, its better than that. What matters in comparing ACs isn't the raw difference, its the percentile difference. If I have an AC that makes a particular monster hit me on a 13+, and you have an AC that makes that monster hit you on a 17+, you're taking 50% as much damage as I am taking.

+1 AC is only a 5% difference in damage taken if you are being hit on a 1+ to begin with. The higher the AC you start with, the more valuable an additional +1 becomes.