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Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

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Upper_Krust said:
Most gods will have 3 or 4 domains, so Bonus Domain, won't go to waste.

But at the same time, gods should be focused, and I think 'drastically reduced options' is stretching things a bit, especially given my portfolios will totally poo all over the official ones in terms of diversity and power.
Okay.

Total Recall allows you to cast a limited amount of spells an unlimited amount of times per day.
Unlimited? I assume you mean "limited only by the number of spell slots?" If so, that's exactly what sorcerers do, only they can't change their spells known.


Its probably weaker than Alter Reality.
Alter Reality is Cosmic. Total Recall and the one I posted are supposedly Divine. Incidentally, the ability you have for unlimited spell slots is also Cosmic. What tier would you put an ability that lets a Sorcerer know all arcane spells? All spells, period?


But why? Everything ultimately tapers to a point. Its not a matter of if Total Recall is possible, simply a matter of when it is possible.

I'm curious to hear how you saw epic spellcasters evolving differently...?
In my vision, Sorcerers stay Sorcerers, and Wizards stay Wizards, and never the twain shall meet, just like I wouldn't let Fighters use Rage without taking Barbarian levels. Wizards learn magic, and use magic; Sorcerers are magic. The one casts spells by rote memoraztion, the other by purely instinctual bitch-slapping of the laws of physics. It's the difference between someone who's spent his life putting together a unified field theory, and the nine year-old who picks up a pencil and corrects the fatal mistake in that theory. If a Wizard, even a Wizard god, wants to cast a spell without forgetting it afterwards, he needs to either invest in Pearls of Power, prepare it more than once, or take levels in Sorcerer. The two casting methods are fundamentally different, and to make it otherwise cheapens both classes (and gives more ammo to the morons who say that Sorcerer is a waste of a class).


Yes, the 'Blood' option already works like that.
My mistake.


Well, Spiderman was bitten by a radioactive spider, and now he has strength about 100 times that of a normal man...so it is possible. :p
Fair point, but I like Ltheb's explanation better (I think). Werebeasts are still vastly overrated, IMO.
 

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WarDragon said:
...
In my vision, Sorcerers stay Sorcerers, and Wizards stay Wizards, and never the twain shall meet, just like I wouldn't let Fighters use Rage without taking Barbarian levels. Wizards learn magic, and use magic; Sorcerers are magic. The one casts spells by rote memoraztion, the other by purely instinctual bitch-slapping of the laws of physics. It's the difference between someone who's spent his life putting together a unified field theory, and the nine year-old who picks up a pencil and corrects the fatal mistake in that theory. If a Wizard, even a Wizard god, wants to cast a spell without forgetting it afterwards, he needs to either invest in Pearls of Power, prepare it more than once, or take levels in Sorcerer. The two casting methods are fundamentally different, and to make it otherwise cheapens both classes (and gives more ammo to the morons who say that Sorcerer is a waste of a class).
...
Okay, I like the field-theory idea :). Though while wizards and sorcerers have different flavors, both some how require the same material components. :) (How did that nine year old kid figure out if he throws bat **** it explodes?)

Though as far as the classes being the same...
Oh, and WarDragon, a bit of a warning. I tend to be long-winded, and write long posts.
For the sake of scrolling down, and so you dont hurt your eyes trying to find the latest updates and such, I try to put all my really long rants/articles/novels into Spoiler Blocks.
Read at your own risk.

[sblock]
My Wizard VS. Sorcerer thoughts, from a numbers stand point.

Early game, power-advantage goes to the wizard with high stats and/or the wizard who is a better planner. He knows more spells, but can't use as many. Unless ambushed, the wizard can prepare for near anything, so the wizard has more tactical sway, but the sorcerer has to use the few spells he has to do everything, or else buy a crossbow.

Mid-game, The game goes to the sorcerer. He has more spells per day than even a specialist wizard, and while he has one or two less feats, and a less adaptable list of spells, unless the sorcerer has chosen a very narrow area of specialty, he or she generally has a spell that will apply in the situation. No cone of cold vs fire giants? Ice storm isn't bad. Warlord threatening you? Charm him, and get away. The wizard may have the advantage of choosing a spells each day that fit exactly what they need, but they are not innately stronger or weaker than the sorcerer unless played tactically better.

High-Game, the wizard can adapt to any situation. Need a spell to defeat a foe? Wish for a scroll of it, cast the spell or scribe it for later use. He can cast any divination spell he wants to get any information he can, and has quite a few more feats than the sorcerer. The sorcerer on the other hand, has a pretty solid list of spells to work with by now (15th-20th level) and their spontaneous casting means if they happen to need 50 fly spells to buypass 50 chasms with long halls in between, they can. Need to teleport between rooms in a dungeon? A sorc with Clairvoyance and Teleport can do it as many as 10 times a day. A wizard, even a prepared one, could do it only 4-6 times before sacrificing the Option to cast other, more powerful spells.

Early Game - Sorc: Narrow list, must make spells work. Wiz: Larger list, can adapt if given preparation.
Mid Game - Sorc: Basic list, can adapt to fit most problems. Wiz: Huge list of options, but can't adapt if a poor choice is made in spell preparation. (What no fireballs? Well, looks like the sorc with his 20+ Scorching Rays will kill the Frost Giants!)
High Game - Sorc: Large list of options, can repeatedly use abilitys without sacrificing adaptibility. Wiz: All options, large list available, still hindered by poor spell choices as usual. (Do I prepare 4 Polar Rays because I know a Red Dragon was the one who made the deal with the Frost Giants, or do I ready myself to deal with the giants who are more numerous...)

Both classes do the same thing: Cast Arcane spells. Wizards 1-20 start out with more advantages, but in the end, sorcerers get a bigger benifit in the long run.

Now, we all know this. But as both classes keep progressing to infinity, the sorcerer continues to gain spells known through bonus feats (at the cost of power) which have become numerous. And lets face it, knowing every spell won't help you against a demi-lich, who is only vulnerable to really one spell. (Shatter)

Eventually both classes through bonus feats will know every useful spell, but assuming the sats are the same, the sorcerer has a much bigger choice in the options available to him. Potentally every option if fresh for the day. A wizard will only have a small fraction of his repotoire at his command. You have a Billion spells in your book? Well, you don't have nearly the spellslots to prepare them all.

At super high epic levels, (somewhere between level 50 and 1000) it seems the roles reverse. :) Wizard becomes a very strong class with a narrow list of options, while the sorcerer gains power much more slowly, but have infinitly more options at any moment.

Picture a line graph, depicting the rate of growth of each class in several areas. In the are of "options" the sorcerer starts off low on options and flexibility, but the line has a quadratic curve to it, sharply increasing in power to near infinity as time progresses. The wizard starts off with a large ammount of options, and gains them quite quickly, but the wizards "options" growth rate is less.

Sure the wizard can easily get every spell. Heck, scribing every spell in the PHB costs about 300k in gold. (Though a Blessed Book filled with every spell is only about 40k...) But once the wizard has every spell, he doesnt always have them all prepared.

And even if he or she did, even if he or she had Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, and Haste, and Confusion, when he runs into the Flaming, Incorporeal Undead, He or she only has one Lightning Bolt to bring against it. The sorcerer, can turn all his or her (3rd to 9th) spell slots (up to 36 of em before bonus spells) into as many lightning bolts as needed, and still has all of his or her other options.

The reason (I have deduced) to merging the 2 classes is because eventually they both use the same spells. (Scorching Ray is mathematically strong) And once you get Alter Reality, preparing spells become useless anyway, because it is wish on steroids. And if your spellcasting stat keeps going up, both classes have about the same number of spells per day. If the difference of about 10-20 spells, does it matter what class you are when your primary stat, lets say 810, gives +100 first level spells... and +98 ninth level?[/sblock]
WarDragon said:
Fair point, but I like Ltheb's explanation better (I think). Werebeasts are still vastly overrated, IMO.
My... Explaination..? I don't know/remember/can't find which one you are referring to. But if you want nasty were-beasts, just deduce the math they used to make the current were-animals, and apply it to something more... exotic. Like the Were-Tarrasque, or a Were-Titan (The Hulk?) Heck, lets go all out: A Were-Nexus Dragon. Nothing ruins your day more than being bit by one of those things,
 
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Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Okay, I like the field-theory idea :). Though while wizards and sorcerers have different flavors, both some how require the same material components. :) (How did that nine year old kid figure out if he throws bat **** it explodes?)
That's the point; he doesn't have to figure it out, he just knows. :D (My opinion that Sorcerers using material components at all is silly notwithstanding).

Though as far as the classes being the same...
Oh, and WarDragon, a bit of a warning. I tend to be long-winded, and write long posts.
For the sake of scrolling down, and so you dont hurt your eyes trying to find the latest updates and such, I try to put all my really long rants/articles/novels into Spoiler Blocks.
Read at your own risk.

[sblock]
My Wizard VS. Sorcerer thoughts, from a numbers stand point.

Early game, power-advantage goes to the wizard with high stats and/or the wizard who is a better planner. He knows more spells, but can't use as many. Unless ambushed, the wizard can prepare for near anything, so the wizard has more tactical sway, but the sorcerer has to use the few spells he has to do everything, or else buy a crossbow.

Mid-game, The game goes to the sorcerer. He has more spells per day than even a specialist wizard, and while he has one or two less feats, and a less adaptable list of spells, unless the sorcerer has chosen a very narrow area of specialty, he or she generally has a spell that will apply in the situation. No cone of cold vs fire giants? Ice storm isn't bad. Warlord threatening you? Charm him, and get away. The wizard may have the advantage of choosing a spells each day that fit exactly what they need, but they are not innately stronger or weaker than the sorcerer unless played tactically better.

High-Game, the wizard can adapt to any situation. Need a spell to defeat a foe? Wish for a scroll of it, cast the spell or scribe it for later use. He can cast any divination spell he wants to get any information he can, and has quite a few more feats than the sorcerer. The sorcerer on the other hand, has a pretty solid list of spells to work with by now (15th-20th level) and their spontaneous casting means if they happen to need 50 fly spells to buypass 50 chasms with long halls in between, they can. Need to teleport between rooms in a dungeon? A sorc with Clairvoyance and Teleport can do it as many as 10 times a day. A wizard, even a prepared one, could do it only 4-6 times before sacrificing the Option to cast other, more powerful spells.

Early Game - Sorc: Narrow list, must make spells work. Wiz: Larger list, can adapt if given preparation.
Mid Game - Sorc: Basic list, can adapt to fit most problems. Wiz: Huge list of options, but can't adapt if a poor choice is made in spell preparation. (What no fireballs? Well, looks like the sorc with his 20+ Scorching Rays will kill the Frost Giants!)
High Game - Sorc: Large list of options, can repeatedly use abilitys without sacrificing adaptibility. Wiz: All options, large list available, still hindered by poor spell choices as usual. (Do I prepare 4 Polar Rays because I know a Red Dragon was the one who made the deal with the Frost Giants, or do I ready myself to deal with the giants who are more numerous...)

Both classes do the same thing: Cast Arcane spells. Wizards 1-20 start out with more advantages, but in the end, sorcerers get a bigger benifit in the long run.

Now, we all know this. But as both classes keep progressing to infinity, the sorcerer continues to gain spells known through bonus feats (at the cost of power) which have become numerous. And lets face it, knowing every spell won't help you against a demi-lich, who is only vulnerable to really one spell. (Shatter)

Eventually both classes through bonus feats will know every useful spell, but assuming the sats are the same, the sorcerer has a much bigger choice in the options available to him. Potentally every option if fresh for the day. A wizard will only have a small fraction of his repotoire at his command. You have a Billion spells in your book? Well, you don't have nearly the spellslots to prepare them all.

At super high epic levels, (somewhere between level 50 and 1000) it seems the roles reverse. :) Wizard becomes a very strong class with a narrow list of options, while the sorcerer gains power much more slowly, but have infinitly more options at any moment.

Picture a line graph, depicting the rate of growth of each class in several areas. In the are of "options" the sorcerer starts off low on options and flexibility, but the line has a quadratic curve to it, sharply increasing in power to near infinity as time progresses. The wizard starts off with a large ammount of options, and gains them quite quickly, but the wizards "options" growth rate is less.

Sure the wizard can easily get every spell. Heck, scribing every spell in the PHB costs about 300k in gold. (Though a Blessed Book filled with every spell is only about 40k...) But once the wizard has every spell, he doesnt always have them all prepared.

And even if he or she did, even if he or she had Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, and Haste, and Confusion, when he runs into the Flaming, Incorporeal Undead, He or she only has one Lightning Bolt to bring against it. The sorcerer, can turn all his or her (3rd to 9th) spell slots (up to 36 of em before bonus spells) into as many lightning bolts as needed, and still has all of his or her other options.

The reason (I have deduced) to merging the 2 classes is because eventually they both use the same spells. (Scorching Ray is mathematically strong) And once you get Alter Reality, preparing spells become useless anyway, because it is wish on steroids. And if your spellcasting stat keeps going up, both classes have about the same number of spells per day. If the difference of about 10-20 spells, does it matter what class you are when your primary stat, lets say 810, gives +100 first level spells... and +98 ninth level?[/sblock]
Very well-said, if not succinctly said. ;) While I would personally still give a fighting chance to a forewarned wizard, since every spell slot is a different spell prepared, and every Spell Knowledge a sorcerer takes is one less Multispell (or Automatic Metamagic Capacity), and note that any wizard who isn't always prepared shouldn't have lived this long to begin with, it's nice to see somebody else giving credit where credit is due. As you might guess, I don't have any particular problem with Sorcerers eclipsing Wizards. As for Alter Reality, yeah, I think it's a bit too much; but note that even Wish can't duplicate spells of 9th level or higher (or Cleric spells, if our arcanist has found a way to get them in his repotoire).

My... Explaination..? I don't know/remember/can't find which one you are referring to. But if you want nasty were-beasts, just deduce the math they used to make the current were-animals, and apply it to something more... exotic. Like the Were-Tarrasque, or a Were-Titan (The Hulk?) Heck, lets go all out: A Were-Nexus Dragon. Nothing ruins your day more than being bit by one of those things,
Sorry, got you mixed up with Dante. :heh:


Sledge said:
I'm thinking total recall essentially means slots don't get used up.
I certainly hope not; U_K made a Cosmic ability called Ensorcelled for that.
 

WarDragon said:
....
Very well-said, if not succinctly said. ;) While I would personally still give a fighting chance to a forewarned wizard, since every spell slot is a different spell prepared, and every Spell Knowledge a sorcerer takes is one less Multispell (or Automatic Metamagic Capacity), and note that any wizard who isn't always prepared shouldn't have lived this long to begin with, it's nice to see somebody else giving credit where credit is due. As you might guess, I don't have any particular problem with Sorcerers eclipsing Wizards. As for Alter Reality, yeah, I think it's a bit too much; but note that even Wish can't duplicate spells of 9th level or higher (or Cleric spells, if our arcanist has found a way to get them in his repotoire).
...
I certainly hope not; U_K made a Cosmic ability called Ensorcelled for that.
As I see it, Total Recall basically makes it so that every spell you prepare is never expended. So If I prepare one magic missile, I can cast it a million times. Note I still can only prepare a few (hundred at that level) spells a day.
Ensorcelled makes it so I have an infinite number of slots available. So I could prepare every one of my spells in my book as many times as I want, or if I am a sorcerer, I have infinite use of all my powers.
Ensorcelled is much better than Total Recall because lets wizards do anything they want if they have Enlightened. Now if a Sorcerer takes Enlightened and Ensorcelled, both classes become the same.
 

Thanks for the posts Kalitharus and Dante! :)

Expect an epic werewolf at some juncture. ;)

historian said:

Hiya mate! :)

historian said:
Indeed, I've been very pleased. I love the intro music.

It is fantastic isn't it. :D

Great show, although I actually preferred the ripped (japanese) version to the official disc translation - which actually gets some stuff wrong in the subtitles. The voices in the japanese version sound great.

historian said:
I was curious as to where you would place Alucard's power level?

Well I don't really need to place it, I own the Hellsing d20 book where it lists his d20 stats. Whether or not I agree with them is another matter. ;)

He's listed as Adventurer 30/Monk 4 True Vampire.

Oddly they give him (and indeed all vampires in that book) a Con score.

historian said:
It seems like Incognito might be a full-fledged Nosferatu, but I'm wondering whether Alucard might be something different?

Certainly Incognito is a Nosferatu. Alucard may just be an Elder Vampire/Vampire Lord.

historian said:
I am also picking FASERIP back up. I was able to acquire the basic set at a discount. Many of the IH powers convert nicely (particularly "Evil Eye"). ;)

I'm using a variation on your previously suggested Class 10,000 levels and up as well (with a +1CS shift per divine rank basically). It looks something like this:

Class 10,000 = Stage I Demiurge
Class 25,000 = Stage II Demiurge
Class 50,000 = Stage III Demiurge

Etc.

I was wondering whether you would still consider CR or ECL*20 = FASERIP to be a reasonable approximation of power?

To be honest I haven't thought about FASERIP since I posted the Theory of Superhero Relativity on the website.

historian said:
Apologies if any of the foregoing is a distraction.

Nope. :)
 

Angel of Adventure said:

Hi Angel! :)

Angel of Adventure said:
It has 105 out of 170+ pages. Is this the most up-to-date version of your book?

If you only just got it, then thats the only file you could have downloaded. So, yes, that is the latest version.

Angel of Adventure said:
Overall, I am very pleased with the Bestiary. I will be trying a couple of those monsters (hopefully) in tonight's game.

Let me know how it goes. :)

Angel of Adventure said:
I'm certain some of these will scare the pooh out of the PCs. :lol:

Thats what they are there for. ;)

Angel of Adventure said:
The PCs in my game are lvl 31-32. Your CR system seems a bit different than that of WotC. Is this correct thinking on my part, and what CRs would you recommend for these PCs?

Thanks,

Well, my CRs are technically the same as WotC.

However, my spread is different from theirs.

If your PCs are level 31-32 then I suggest CR 32 as your main target.

CR 8 very, very easy encounter
CR 11 very easy encounter
CR 16 easy encounter
CR 21 moderate encounter
CR 32 tough encounter: Henchmen
CR 42 very tough encounter: Sub-Boss
CR 48 very, very tough encounter: End Boss

The following page has the spread for 100th-level characters. Simply divide the listed CRs by 3 to get figures for your group.

www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff18.htm
 

Hey WarDragon mate! :)

WarDragon said:
Unlimited? I assume you mean "limited only by the number of spell slots?" If so, that's exactly what sorcerers do, only they can't change their spells known.

Which they get without sacrificing a divine ability slot.

WarDragon said:
Alter Reality is Cosmic. Total Recall and the one I posted are supposedly Divine. Incidentally, the ability you have for unlimited spell slots is also Cosmic. What tier would you put an ability that lets a Sorcerer know all arcane spells? All spells, period?

As Ltheb pointed out, that already in the book, its a Cosmic power called Enlightenment.

WarDragon said:
In my vision, Sorcerers stay Sorcerers, and Wizards stay Wizards, and never the twain shall meet, just like I wouldn't let Fighters use Rage without taking Barbarian levels.

They could gain it if they used the Nescient divine ability which lets you ignore feat prereqs.

WarDragon said:
Wizards learn magic, and use magic; Sorcerers are magic. The one casts spells by rote memoraztion, the other by purely instinctual bitch-slapping of the laws of physics. It's the difference between someone who's spent his life putting together a unified field theory, and the nine year-old who picks up a pencil and corrects the fatal mistake in that theory. If a Wizard, even a Wizard god, wants to cast a spell without forgetting it afterwards, he needs to either invest in Pearls of Power, prepare it more than once, or take levels in Sorcerer. The two casting methods are fundamentally different, and to make it otherwise cheapens both classes (and gives more ammo to the morons who say that Sorcerer is a waste of a class).

You are missing the crux of the matter though. Anythings is possible. Its just a matter of when a wizard can take powers that enable them to become akin to a Sorcerer.

I mean its not great difficulty to multi-class into Sorcerer. So if your God of Wizards takes 1 level of Sorcerer all the nonsense about requiring this and that is undone in an instant.

So the idea of keeping the classes 'pure' is just whimsical and irrelevant.

WarDragon said:
My mistake.

I'm actually thinking that perhaps 'Ward' should be the tenth effect option.

WarDragon said:
Fair point, but I like Ltheb's explanation better (I think). Werebeasts are still vastly overrated, IMO.

I think the official rules only really scratch the surface potential of were-creatures.
 

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
As I see it, Total Recall basically makes it so that every spell you prepare is never expended. So If I prepare one magic missile, I can cast it a million times. Note I still can only prepare a few (hundred at that level) spells a day.
Ensorcelled makes it so I have an infinite number of slots available. So I could prepare every one of my spells in my book as many times as I want, or if I am a sorcerer, I have infinite use of all my powers.
Ensorcelled is much better than Total Recall because lets wizards do anything they want if they have Enlightened. Now if a Sorcerer takes Enlightened and Ensorcelled, both classes become the same.
Still seems more appropriate for the Cosmic level, to me. If it should exist at all.

Upper_Krust said:
Hey WarDragon mate! :)
Yo.
Which they get without sacrificing a divine ability slot.
And wizards can change their "spells known" every day, without sacrificing a divine ability slot.

As Ltheb pointed out, that already in the book, its a Cosmic power called Enlightenment.
Hmm.... how did I forget about that? I might call it divine, myself.

They could gain it if they used the Nescient divine ability which lets you ignore feat prereqs.
Bwuh? I would have assumed that without a base Rage ability to modify, the various Rage-boosting feats would have no effect for non-Barbarians.

You are missing the crux of the matter though. Anythings is possible. Its just a matter of when a wizard can take powers that enable them to become akin to a Sorcerer.
Again, I disagree. I don't see any reason for "tapering to a point" in general, as a matter of fact. I find breaking down the distinctions between classes.... distasteful.

I mean its not great difficulty to multi-class into Sorcerer. So if your God of Wizards takes 1 level of Sorcerer all the nonsense about requiring this and that is undone in an instant.
Except that the two kinds of casting are still tracked separately. He needs at least 18 levels of Sorcerer to get 9th level spells to qualify for most Epic Sorcerer feats, and even then, those feats would not benefit his Wizard casting.

So the idea of keeping the classes 'pure' is just whimsical and irrelevant.
Why? I think breaking down the barriers between them is antithetical to the d20 system.
I'm actually thinking that perhaps 'Ward' should be the tenth effect option.
Something that bars effects of the same type?


I think the official rules only really scratch the surface potential of were-creatures.
One template that allows for any animal to be used with it is enough for me, but whatever. It's not like you're making entire classes pointless with this line of thought. :p
 

Well, I had 2 player cancellations and a late arrival and an early departure, so I opted to ru my normal game vs the Immortal's Tournament idea. :( Twas a fun night however. Thankfully though, I briefed those I haven't spoken with yet on the tourney and it looks like 4-6 players will be the party.

WarDragon said:
...
Again, I disagree. I don't see any reason for "tapering to a point" in general, as a matter of fact. I find breaking down the distinctions between classes.... distasteful.
...
Why? I think breaking down the barriers between them is antithetical to the d20 system.
Something that bars effects of the same type?
...
[sblock]
Well, yes in theory things don't have to taper to a point, but in the d20 system things are not that cut and dry. What happens in an Immortal's system is that with different ranked abilities, if abilities of certain magnitude of power are available, unless your class features have a power curve that meets or exceeds that of the curve of the powers, then eventually, all that will matter about your class is how many levels you have in it.

Take the epic BaB progression. At 100th level, the difference between the combat skills of a Fighter and a wizard are 10 points. 60 vs 50. The fighter's power curve in that area leveled off due to everything progressing at that rate. Eventually, it gets to the point where either every asset of a class does this, or one specific thing becomes all powerful.

Now, you could devise a system, and it could be based on d20, where every class has the exact same power curve. At that point, its like going to an Ice Cream shop; Tons of flavors, but it is still all ice cream. It becomes a mechanical Rock/Paper/Scissors, where everyone has the same bonuses total at any given level, but in different areas. All would have to have the same damage output and effectiveness in combat, else one thing gets to be superior. It would be quite a strange balancing act.

Tapering simply makes it easier to deal with the system; saying "Look, you can keep going after level X, but it stops working, so good luck" thats why Basic D20 only goes to level 20, because the expected curves for all the classes lead some to infinitly scaling power. (Like Warlock) and others to a drop off where they gain no benifit from continuing to gain any levels, because their specialty can't get better. Once a wizard can develop a spell that does "everything without fail" theres no more point to becoming a more powerful wizard.

I'll tell you, a friend of mine was doubtful that U_K was going to even get to Ascension. (The whole vaporware jokes and the like) And asked me if he didn't do it, would I. As much as I like the idea, I don't think I would, or could, do it. I would fall into these mathematical quandries, and lose sight of the flavor, and then fall into a flavor frenzy, and make broken mechanics. In the end, either you arrive at Everything is possible, or some things are impossible, and since impossibility leads to less options and less varied play, Infinite Possiblilities is a generally better road to take to appease everyone. (Otherwise you arrive at my above example of a perfectly scaling system where everything is the same)

Now, this is from a numbers standpoint. From a flavors standpoint, I think sorcerer and wizard should be totally different classes. By the rules, sorcerers still do everything a wizard does to cast a spell, same components, same gestures, same words. Jus for some reason the sorcerer can do it because he has a strong personality. What are the odds that I just wave my hand, which happens to have Bat guano on it, in such a way that I cause you to explode? Sorcerers are like quantum Physics Omni-masters, without requiring one bit of knowledge.

So, by the rules the only difference is if you have options now, and lots of power later, (Wiz) or lots of power now, and lots of options later (sorc), because everything else about the classes is the same.

In the end though, whether wizards or sorcs eclipse each other or become one is preference. I mean, if you don't like a power, just explain it to the PCs and dis-allow the power. (perhaps making some new ones in the process) Someone here on the boards has a severe hatred for Seventh Sense since it seems convoluted to adjucate. I am not a terribly big fan of Sophism, because it grants a narrow window of varience at that point. They are either vulnerable to you, or they laugh in your face. [/sblock]
 

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