Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[WarDragon]

Hiya mate!
Its possible.

Good to know.

What about:

Divine Sorcery (to counter Divine Wizardry)

Doubles the number of Spells Known.

Seems appropriate; but, Divine Wizardry still benefits any class, and needs a different name.

So you think Enlightenment should be Divine and Total Recall should be Cosmic...?

The benefits of Enlightenment could theoretically be duplicated by any 17th level wizard with enough money, time and patience. Total Recall eliminates the sole balancing factor of the class (namely, that you run out of spells).

I suspect you could easily manifest the original rage ability with a wish spell.

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, but I would never allow a person to get any class feature without taking levels in that class, or at least a chain of feats that are designed to give it to other classes.

I generally only think this applies to the Sorcerer/Wizard, where you get overt bleeding. The other classes usually have at least one specific power that I can get my teeth into and expand upon.

Wizards have the power to learn any spell; sorcerers have the power to cast any spell they know as many times a day as they have slots, in any combination. Seems like enough difference to me, even without entering the "books versus blood" flavor differences.

Well, we already know that multi-classing, with regards caster level at least, is broken within the rules as written, since you'll almost certainly never penetrate the Spell resistance of monsters of the appropriate CR.

Indeed.

I don't believe the barriers between Sorcerer and Wizard are sufficiently pronounced.

I'm sure this will come as a huge surprise to you, but I disagree.

Well I usually try to advocate you at least have as many HD/Levels as the total ECL of any templates you add.

Not directed at me, but I fully support this policy. It gets.... wierd, otherwise. Of course, it does raise the question of how Alabaster got those first 15 levels (or whatever LA you want to give Paragon)...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox mate!

He wasn't yet- he's too busy figuring out what Divine ability or abilities he wants (I suspect abilities, since I suspect he'll be willing to pay 6 levels to get two divine ranks, but he hasn't said so for sure yet). Honestly, my rules for how deities grant Domains to Clerics are radically different from the core rules anyway, so it's possible the Portfolio rules will need tweaking in my case regardless- Nexus, for example, is an Intermediate god who has 14 Domains on his list for Clerics, even though he only has three actual "spheres of influence" which should obviously equate to Portfolios. And while your Portfolio list does include Disease, it does not include his other two, those being Power and Corruption. What I told the player for now is that we should start with Nexus's list of Domains and basically either pick a Portfolio from the IH, or make one up based partly on the chosen Domain depending on which Portfolios get chosen. It seems the best solution for the moment.

That whole 14 domain thing seems a tad too much to me, but each to their own I suppose.

The player in question is one of the group's powergamers, so this is a dream come true for him even without the Portfolios- his exact words were "It's funny I already had my wish in mind for Nexus' deal, and then I found out I would get much more!" This whole "deal with the Devil" subplot has been working up in the game for a couple of months now- he just didn't try to initiate it before this last session. And technically he didn't do it even then, but he did fulfill the trigger condition which was to speak the god's name three times in a single utterance. He had Knowledge (Religion), and could have asked me how to trigger Nexus's coming, but just never thought to do so. Oh well- now he knows.

I keep forgetting how much of the book is potentially a power gamer's wet dream.

On the note of Portfolios, one intriguing possibility occurred to me- since the GM is supposed to pick one of the two the character gets, and since this case is one where the power is being directly granted by a deity, that essentially means the deity is picking at least one of the Portfolios granted. And given who the deity in question is, it makes a certain degree of sense for there to be a "Slave" or "Servant" Portfolio that the deity uses to fill the second slot of mortals that have one or two Divine Ranks bestowed upon them in this manner. Does this idea work well with the concept of the Resonance? Should a deity who is acting as patron to a mortal with 1 or 2 ranks, or a new Immortal with more, have a special Portfolio that is granted to such a character in that specific circumstance? What would that sort of Portfolio do? I think this opens up a rather unique roleplaying possibility and very interesting story elements.

You could have a god of slavery (combining Rulership and Evil I suppose) but the idea of a god whose Portfolio is that hes an actual slave is a touch unpalatable. Who wants to worship a god who is a slave? Only other slaves, and even then they will dream of freedom. So does nexus want to create a god of freedom - I don't think so.

It also seems a bit unnecessary if what you are trying to achieve is give the god bestowing the power some measure of control, what you want to do is write up a compact ~ I'll discuss this in the Resonance rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Arg-ha mate!

Hope you have been keeping well?

your guide to building immortals states an immortal has 4 artifacts and usually a very limited supply of "mundane" magic and then give the break down on the maximums, now what is not clear is whether the immortal gets 4 artifacts at the stated power levels or are the power levels broken up amongst the 4 items?

4 Items at the stated power levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Servitor dude!

What if you PWK a creature immune to death? +10 to a save if worthless if you don't get a save in the first place.

If the spell is damage based then it works at half power. In this case 50 hp.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Ltheb mate!

PWK never kills anyone except mooks anyway. (Except when a 17th level mage fights the 9th level party, which if they walk away from such a fight, that mage must be really stupid or have a very poor selection of spells. That, or they are really bloody lucky)

Unless of course the spellcaster is combining it with AMC.

A 17th-level (quodruple empowered) Power Word Kill would kill anyone with 400 hp or less.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Howdy Ltheb mate!



Unless of course the spellcaster is combining it with AMC.

A 17th-level (quodruple empowered) Power Word Kill would kill anyone with 400 hp or less.

This works too. Though the Empower rules say you can't do this, I don't think WotC balanced Empower Spell against characters who can shoot Atomic Laser Beams out of their eyes.
Oh, any plans to finish the Powers section for the next update? (Or at least knock out a few dozen more) Tenth Sense just sounds awesome. (And rather absurd Can I use it on myself? Ah-ha! I knew I was going to use it on myself!)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey War Dragon dude!

Good to know.

I may remove Total Recall altogether. Or make it Sorcerer based and drop Enlightenment down to Divine.

Divine Sorcery ~ Cast twice as many spells/day (Cha 40)
Total Recall (maybe change the name to Ensorcelled) ~ Cast any number of spells/day

Divine Wizardy ~ Know twice as many spells (Int 40)
Enlightenment ~ Know all spells

The question then becomes, what the hell do these classes do at cosmic levels?

What do we do with Alter Reality?

Is there a bleed point? ie. Can Sorcerers ever learn more spells, can wizards ever gain more spell slots? If there is a bleed point, where is it - divine ability, cosmic ability.

Should there be a Wisdom based version of Divine Sorcery/Wizardry, if so what does it double?

Seems appropriate; but, Divine Wizardry still benefits any class, and needs a different name.

In terms of names I was thinking of swopping around Divine Sorcery and Divine Wizardry.

I'm all ears as to prereqs for Divine Sorcery and Divine Wizardry? Not much divides these classes and if I say "20 levels of Wizard", then that rules out similar Prestige Classes. At the moment I have added Cha 40 and Int 40 respectively. But that still doesn't really tie it to the classes.

The benefits of Enlightenment could theoretically be duplicated by any 17th level wizard with enough money, time and patience. Total Recall eliminates the sole balancing factor of the class (namely, that you run out of spells).

Total Recall does seem a sort of half-way house between Divine Sorcery (formerly Divine Wizardry) and Ensorcelled. However, you have posed the question should the Wizard progress in such a manner since its raison d'etre is learning more spells, rather than casting spells lots of times.

Of course you failed to address that even the official rules rarely makes such a distinction (note the Spell Knowledge epic feat in the ELH). In fact, apart from 'Scribe Epic Scroll' are there any epic feats within the ELH that differentiate between Sorcerer and Wizard...?

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, but I would never allow a person to get any class feature without taking levels in that class, or at least a chain of feats that are designed to give it to other classes.

But if a magic item or a spell duplicates a class feature you are okay with that, right?

Wizards have the power to learn any spell; sorcerers have the power to cast any spell they know as many times a day as they have slots, in any combination. Seems like enough difference to me, even without entering the "books versus blood" flavor differences.

Is it a difference expanded upon or even mentioned by the Epic Level Handbook?

I'm sure this will come as a huge surprise to you, but I disagree.

Not directed at me, but I fully support this policy. It gets.... wierd, otherwise. Of course, it does raise the question of how Alabaster got those first 15 levels (or whatever LA you want to give Paragon)...

I think his Paragon template did not manifest itself until later in his life (when he was more experienced).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb matey!

This works too. Though the Empower rules say you can't do this, I don't think WotC balanced Empower Spell against characters who can shoot Atomic Laser Beams out of their eyes.

Bah! Fools!

Oh, any plans to finish the Powers section for the next update? (Or at least knock out a few dozen more)

I'll try and have as much as possible.

I think the current feat count is 122 (with 3 ideas pending), divine abilities 210 (with 7 ideas pending), cosmic abilities 107 (with 2 ideas pending).

In fact I am wondering if the Mercurial ability should only be Divine and that maybe I should make a Cosmic Ability that gives you one attack/5 BAB ~ a continued progression as it were. What do you guys think?

Tenth Sense just sounds awesome. (And rather absurd Can I use it on myself? Ah-ha! I knew I was going to use it on myself!)

Sometimes I just stick cool names or progressions in and then work an ability around it.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
I'll try and have as much as possible.

I think the current feat count is 122 (with 3 ideas pending), divine abilities 210 (with 7 ideas pending), cosmic abilities 107 (with 2 ideas pending).

In fact I am wondering if the Mercurial ability should only be Divine and that maybe I should make a Cosmic Ability that gives you one attack/5 BAB ~ a continued progression as it were. What do you guys think?



Sometimes I just stick cool names or progressions in and then work an ability around it.

Mercurial is good, but the whole move-thing makes it a bit underpowered. Ex: Any opponent who recognizes this power may know its limitation, and just walk away. Sure, they get an AoO, but it isn't as bad as taking 2-4 extra attacks next round. As for extra attack progression, everything after 4 attacks won't hit anyway. (Unless you have something similar to sticky strike or perfect attack)

For Divine Sorcerey and Wizerdry:
Divine Sorcerery: Req: Cha 40 OR CL 21 & Spontaneously cast Arcane spells (so anyone could get it, but its easier for the epic sorcerer)
Divine Wizardry: Req: Scribe Scroll, Int 40 OR Ability to prepare and cast Arcane Spells & CL 21 (Same Idea, anyone can get it, but wizard has the best chance)

or you could balance the prereqs differently - Div Sorc: Cha 40 if a spontaneous Arcane spellcaster... But Cha 70 otherwise...
Reverse for Div Wiz: Int 40 for casters who prepare arcane spells, Int 70 for everyone else.

The ability rank doesn't change, but it has much stiffer requirements. (Granted most everyone could meet the requirements anyway unless they shorted themselves on some stat.)

At Cosmic level, both classes will blend a bit, especially with Alter Reality. But since it is listed as "Once" a round... you can't invoke as many spells with it as with your normal spellcasting. Since its a free action to use, it basically provides an extra spell per round for the mage-types, and basic magical support for the non-mages, who wont take AMC.

So 7th Sense means everyone declares their actions first and rolls everything, but everything still happens in innitiative order but you know what they are doing and the outcomes...
So If I am fighting Bob and I roll 18 and he gets 17 he has to say "On my turn I charge Ltheb and Powerattack 10 points" but since I go first, I can teleport away and foil his action, or cast a spell like Hold Person.
Heh, I can't imagine the mechanics for 8th-10th sense. (Deny foes Insight and/or luck bonuses? Cumulative bonuses on AC/Saves against foes?)

 

[paradox42]

That whole 14 domain thing seems a tad too much to me, but each to their own I suppose.

It's because I house-ruled Clerics so that they start with only one Domain but gain more as they gain levels. They need more to choose from than Clerics in standard rules as a result; every deity in my game has at least 10 Domains to pick from. This was a result of trying to make the Clerics more like the specialty priests of each deity I had in the 2nd Edition version of this same world- Clerics in my game aren't allowed to be unbound to a deity. So they're all essentially specialty priests of a sort.

You could have a god of slavery (combining Rulership and Evil I suppose) but the idea of a god whose Portfolio is that hes an actual slave is a touch unpalatable. Who wants to worship a god who is a slave?

Well, the point is that the only ones who would have this are mortals who made Deals, not other gods. Nobody but Disciples or Prophets would have it. But, I see your point. And actually Nexus himself is pretty close to a god of Slavery already, though technically there isn't a deity with that precise portfolio in my list yet.

Only other slaves, and even then they will dream of freedom. So does nexus want to create a god of freedom - I don't think so.

To my view, the creation of a Portfolio does not automatically create an opposite, only the potential for an opposite- and likewise, even if an opposite is immediately created, that doesn't mean a deity will automatically and immediately arise to claim it. I don't see stability in the cosmic sense as given, necessary or even desirable; only metastability. As an example, the "balance" between Law and Chaos in my cosmos is at the moment decidedly in favor of Chaos- both of the original paragons of Lawful Good and Lawful Evil are dead, and a Chaotic god has a home realm in the Heavens of all places. Law is essentially scrambling to recover but is definitely on the losing side at the moment; Chaos, however, being Chaos, has done nothing with its de facto victory but sit on it going "neener neener!"

As for Freedom, the deity who most exemplifies that concept already is one of Nexus's most hated enemies, but also far too powerful for Nexus to take on (alone) with any chance of success. It's the ruler of the Good gods, a Greater God who also happens to be one of the three gods of Magic (the Triad who split Magic are the rulers of the other deities in my game). That god's holy warriors are called Freedom Knights, and both those and Favored Souls devoted to him can get Freedom of Movement as a granted power... you get the idea. With a god like him in the cosmos, Slavery is actually the concept that's on the metaphorical ropes.

It also seems a bit unnecessary if what you are trying to achieve is give the god bestowing the power some measure of control, what you want to do is write up a compact ~ I'll discuss this in the Resonance rules.

Now, that would be very nice to see in the next update! Since it is, in fact, exactly what's being undertaken here, and all. Do you have anything close to actual rules for that, or just generic notes that haven't really been hammered into details yet? Either way, I seem to have an obvious playtest situation for them on my hands now.