Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[dante58701]

To War Dragon

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, but I would never allow a person to get any class feature without taking levels in that class, or at least a chain of feats that are designed to give it to other classes.

Tenser's Transformation - A 6th level Arcane spell that essentially allows for a minor version of a barbarian rage. I would certainly allow WISH to duplicate a true rage or even a GREATER RAGE. Especially since WISH is 3 levels higher. Tensers Transformation has been around since the days of Gary Gygax. I think Gary Gygax himself would be inclined to agree that mimicking a class feature once per wish is a more than appropriate use of Wish and he invented Dungeons and Dragons.

My advice....reeeeellllllllaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxx......let the Ki flow and enjoy the scenery.


To Krusty

As to War Dragons arguments and objections...I wouldnt worry too much Krusty. He blatantly disregards preexisting rules and regulations within the confines of Dungeons and Dragons and is very disrespectful in general of free thinking and artistic integrity. Youve been doing great work so I wouldnt worry about bleeding classes into other classes or changing many of the Divine and Cosmic abilities as they are currently nearly perfect.

In retrospect...you may want to do an update on the Epic Bestiary PDF once Ascension is complete though. It wouldn't need many revisions, just a small handfull. Notably some manner of indicating which abilities are derived strictly from divine templates (you could make a little D in the upper right corner or something to that effect). And perhaps a note or two regarding maven and omnicompetent. These minor adjustments would make advancing monsters easier. That way nobody adds too many or too few divine abilities when advancing mosters. This way we'll know which abilities to strip divinities of in the event that they lose their divinity or are imprisoned. As some abilities would be purely racial (immunities, spell-like abilities, ect.) it would be nice to know which ones are strictly divine. Unless there is some indicator to indicate an ability as divine or mortal, everyone will be wracking their brains when such an event comes to pass.

For example...An Anakim loses it's divinity. It has a plethora of spell-like abilities and other abilities. Which of these are divine and which are nondivine. Given an Anakim is supposed to be divine...but which abilities would it be stripped of and which would it retain. The same applies to a Seraphim. Which abilities would it lose if it were stripped of it's divinity.

Currently Im working on a Malakim and a Maskim that were stripped of their divinity for falling in love, though I dont know where to start. What do they lose without a single divine rank, what do they retain? As there are no indicators indicating which abilities are divine, I have no idea what they would lose.

You should also add all Epic Bestiary Divine, Cosmic, Ect. abilities to the lists. Like the Gibborim's GOD WOMB...he he he...and others that are equally fun.

As for Alter Reality...Id always liked WOTC variation on Alter Reality. It was quite flexible, wish leaves too many loopholes. Since their version is open game content, you could adapt it to your liking. This might make it the most complicated ability, but Altering Reality is never simple.

Im looking forward too seeing what you think, just tossing out some ideas.

 

[WarDragon]

Hey War Dragon dude!

Greetings.

I may remove Total Recall altogether. Or make it Sorcerer based and drop Enlightenment down to Divine.

Divine Sorcery ~ Cast twice as many spells/day (Cha 40)
Total Recall (maybe change the name to Ensorcelled) ~ Cast any number of spells/day

Divine Wizardy ~ Know twice as many spells (Int 40)
Enlightenment ~ Know all spells

The question then becomes, what the hell do these classes do at cosmic levels?

What do we do with Alter Reality?

Is there a bleed point? ie. Can Sorcerers ever learn more spells, can wizards ever gain more spell slots? If there is a bleed point, where is it - divine ability, cosmic ability.

Should there be a Wisdom based version of Divine Sorcery/Wizardry, if so what does it double?


In terms of names I was thinking of swopping around Divine Sorcery and Divine Wizardry.

I'm all ears as to prereqs for Divine Sorcery and Divine Wizardry? Not much divides these classes and if I say "20 levels of Wizard", then that rules out similar Prestige Classes. At the moment I have added Cha 40 and Int 40 respectively. But that still doesn't really tie it to the classes.



Total Recall does seem a sort of half-way house between Divine Sorcery (formerly Divine Wizardry) and Ensorcelled. However, you have posed the question should the Wizard progress in such a manner since its raison d'etre is learning more spells, rather than casting spells lots of times.

Of course you failed to address that even the official rules rarely makes such a distinction (note the Spell Knowledge epic feat in the ELH). In fact, apart from 'Scribe Epic Scroll' are there any epic feats within the ELH that differentiate between Sorcerer and Wizard...?

Here's how I would do it.

Divine Spellcaster (Ex)
Prerequisites: ability to cast spells of the normal maximum level in a spellcasting class, spellcasting ability 40
Benefit: Your base spells per day for one spellcasting class are doubled, as if you were wearing rings of wizardry for every level of spells you can cast.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must decide whether its effects stack (remember that two doublings equal a tripling), or apply to a different spellcasting class.

Divine Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: ability to cast spells of the normal maximum level in a spellcasting class, spellcasting ability 40
Benefit: Your number of spells known for one spellcasting class are doubled.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must decide whether its effects stack (remember that two doublings equal a tripling), or apply to a different spellcasting class.

Cosmic Spellcaster (Ex)
Prerequisites: Divine Spellcaster, spellcasting ability 70
Benefit: You may cast an infinite number of spells per day.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time it is taken, it must apply to a different spellcasting class.

Cosmic Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: Divine Spell Knowledge, spellcasting ability 70
Benefit: You know all spells from your normal class list.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

Transcendental Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: Must know all spells from own class list, spellcasting ability 130
Benefit: You know all spells from all class lists. If you were originally a divine spellcaster, you cast arcane spells as divine, and vice versa.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

Notice that this does still produce the "bleeding" effect you wanted, just not until the Cosmic level. At that point, the only difference is that spontaneous casters have to take a full round when using metamagic without Automatic Metamagic Capacity (or Rapid Metamagic, in the new Complete Mage book). I wish the spellcasting classes were more distinct, personally; chalk it up to poor design on the part of the people writing the 3.0 PHB. As for Alter Reality, just keep it as-is. Even wish can't duplicate arcane 9th level spells, or divine 8th and 9th level spells. Not to mention the fact that metamagic can't be applied to spell-like or supernatural abilities.

But if a magic item or a spell duplicates a class feature you are okay with that, right?

I would not let a spell or magic item fulfill prerequisites for another feat or ability, no.

Is it a difference expanded upon or even mentioned by the Epic Level Handbook?

Not explicitly; again, I call this a flaw in the classes themselves.

I think his Paragon template did not manifest itself until later in his life (when he was more experienced).

Interesting... what about creatures born with the deific templates? Same deal?

Tenser's Transformation - A 6th level Arcane spell that essentially allows for a minor version of a barbarian rage. I would certainly allow WISH to duplicate a true rage or even a GREATER RAGE. Especially since WISH is 3 levels higher. Tensers Transformation has been around since the days of Gary Gygax. I think Gary Gygax himself would be inclined to agree that mimicking a class feature once per wish is a more than appropriate use of Wish and he invented Dungeons and Dragons.

My advice....reeeeellllllllaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxx......let the Ki flow and enjoy the scenery.

Once per wish, yes. Permanently, so it meets prerequisites? No sir.

As to War Dragons arguments and objections...I wouldnt worry too much Krusty. He blatantly disregards preexisting rules and regulations within the confines of Dungeons and Dragons and is very disrespectful in general of free thinking and artistic integrity. Youve been doing great work so I wouldnt worry about bleeding classes into other classes or changing many of the Divine and Cosmic abilities as they are currently nearly perfect.

Even though this was not directed at me, I can't ignore it. Now, you're just being deliberately insulting. Because I happen to respectfully disagree with Upper_Krust, and I state my opinion that a Fighter should be different from a Barbarian, and a Sorcerer from a Wizard, as the flavor text of the classes implies, I'm being disrespectful of artistic integrity? And how have I "blatantly disregarded" any "preexisting rules and regulations" of D&D? If anything, I'm the one trying to keep things closer to the base rules, and Krusty's the radical.

No, that was not an assault on his "artistic integrity." For the most part, I think U_K has done an absolutely awesome job with the Immortal's Handbook so far, and I'm only offering my honest opinion of what I see as a potential balance/flavor issue with the books. Nowhere in my posts have I personally attacked him, or for that matter, you. I will thank you, sir, to return that courtesy henceforth.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hey lets all drop it. This is becomeing less civil the more we discuss it. I know I tend to sound like I am lecturing from a superior standpoint, so lets just agree to drop the issue.

Wardragon:
Ahhh I see what you are getting at now. You didn't want classes casting other classes spells.
Nice, simple feat write ups. Now, I would say the Transient one seems a little weak, but thats because I am comparing it to Omega effect, which is absurdly strong.

As for the class feature thing: I agree. I really don't like it, pre epic, when one class can steal anothers thunder, and do it better than the original class could. (Ex: Druid vs Barbarian/fighter, Cleric vs Wizard, Heck, Wizard vs Fighter/rogue)


And for those who want class features duplicatable with spells, but not easily, consider this:
Rage is a 1st level barabarian power. The Rage spell is a 2nd level spell. Perhaps a formula like (Class feature's level x 2) could be used to determine the spell level of an effect. So you want to plunge the fighter into a Mighty (20th level barbarian) rage? Thats a 40th!!! level spell. No chance pre epic. (and in epic, if a +5 to hit and damage swings the fight, then the PCs deserve to win, because that must be an "epic" battle) Want 5d6 sneak attack? I Hope you can cast 18th level spells.

While it wouldn't let you qualify for the feat/class/etc, if you had power that were based on the duplicated class feature, they could kick in.

On a side note:
[sblock]
I once tried to make varient core classes that didn't bleed into each other at any level. Nerf wild shape/polymorph, Threw out Clerical Metamagic all together. (Wait, so a GOD gave you that spell, and some how you can improve on it? Isn't that like questioning your god?) And I flayed their class list down to specific "Clerical duty" spells, however I gave each access to 2 domains, and they could spontaneously cast from their entire list! (Which included very themeatically appropo spells. Worship the sun god? Fighting trolls? Pray for a Firestorm, and maybe you will get one!) And I made their domain powers better, by giving better ones at higher levels, some of which let you apply limited metamagic to your spells. (Like a 7th level Fire domain power that let you Empower one spell with the Fire descriptor a day for free) Clerics lost the high-fort save and armor proficientcies as well as the 3/4 BaB. Those were split up among the domains. And no, you could never get all 3.

Sorcerers got spell-like abilities, though they "could" be from any list, they had very few uses a day. They got d6 HD and 3/4 bab too.

Rogues and Barbarains stayed the same (Those were the classes I balanced things against)

Wizards got different rules for specialization and I threw some spells into other schools by redifining what that school had. (Ex: Transmutation Solely affacts the body, and Enchantment, the Mind, so Foxes Cunning is an Enchantment spell. Specialization ment you had to throw out the opposed school to your own, so a Transmuter couldn't ever cast foxes cunning. And you suffered penalties when dealing with the opposed school, and the reverse with your own)

Rangers had a plethora of changes, but in the end they were deadly fighters if in their "Favored Terrain" fighting their "Favored Enemy."

Bards were as their 2nd ed writeups. Changed to Wizard-like casting to represent a dabbling in the arcane through study. I even gave them EVERY weapon proficiency. Bardic music didn't change much though.

Didn't know what to do with fighters. Free Leadership at 9th?

Twas fun. Never got to use or test'em but they gave me a bit of insight to how developers do things.
[/sblock]

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Mercurial is good, but the whole move-thing makes it a bit underpowered. Ex: Any opponent who recognizes this power may know its limitation, and just walk away. Sure, they get an AoO, but it isn't as bad as taking 2-4 extra attacks next round. As for extra attack progression, everything after 4 attacks won't hit anyway. (Unless you have something similar to sticky strike or perfect attack)

Agreed. I'll probably change it.

As for hitting after 4 attacks, yes I do have a few more abilities for that.

For Divine Sorcerey and Wizerdry:
Divine Sorcerery: Req: Cha 40 OR CL 21 & Spontaneously cast Arcane spells (so anyone could get it, but its easier for the epic sorcerer)
Divine Wizardry: Req: Scribe Scroll, Int 40 OR Ability to prepare and cast Arcane Spells & CL 21 (Same Idea, anyone can get it, but wizard has the best chance)

or you could balance the prereqs differently - Div Sorc: Cha 40 if a spontaneous Arcane spellcaster... But Cha 70 otherwise...
Reverse for Div Wiz: Int 40 for casters who prepare arcane spells, Int 70 for everyone else.

The ability rank doesn't change, but it has much stiffer requirements. (Granted most everyone could meet the requirements anyway unless they shorted themselves on some stat.)

At Cosmic level, both classes will blend a bit, especially with Alter Reality. But since it is listed as "Once" a round... you can't invoke as many spells with it as with your normal spellcasting. Since its a free action to use, it basically provides an extra spell per round for the mage-types, and basic magical support for the non-mages, who wont take AMC.

War Dragon suggests some neat ideas below.

But I agree with you on Alter Reality.

So 7th Sense means everyone declares their actions first and rolls everything, but everything still happens in innitiative order but you know what they are doing and the outcomes...

So If I am fighting Bob and I roll 18 and he gets 17 he has to say "On my turn I charge Ltheb and Powerattack 10 points" but since I go first, I can teleport away and foil his action, or cast a spell like Hold Person.

Indeed.

Heh, I can't imagine the mechanics for 8th-10th sense. (Deny foes Insight and/or luck bonuses? Cumulative bonuses on AC/Saves against foes?)

...and as soon as I imagine them I'll be sure and type them up.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox mate!

It's because I house-ruled Clerics so that they start with only one Domain but gain more as they gain levels. They need more to choose from than Clerics in standard rules as a result; every deity in my game has at least 10 Domains to pick from. This was a result of trying to make the Clerics more like the specialty priests of each deity I had in the 2nd Edition version of this same world- Clerics in my game aren't allowed to be unbound to a deity. So they're all essentially specialty priests of a sort.

Ironically 'specialising' in diversity.

Well, the point is that the only ones who would have this are mortals who made Deals, not other gods. Nobody but Disciples or Prophets would have it. But, I see your point. And actually Nexus himself is pretty close to a god of Slavery already, though technically there isn't a deity with that precise portfolio in my list yet.

From my limited experience, deities usually try and empower others with portfolios different from their own. Think of each god trying to create a mini-pantheon of undergods.

e.g. Demogorgons sponsorship with Saint Kazgoroth the death knight may well be to steal worshippers away from Orcus.

To my view, the creation of a Portfolio does not automatically create an opposite, only the potential for an opposite- and likewise, even if an opposite is immediately created, that doesn't mean a deity will automatically and immediately arise to claim it. I don't see stability in the cosmic sense as given, necessary or even desirable; only metastability. As an example, the "balance" between Law and Chaos in my cosmos is at the moment decidedly in favor of Chaos- both of the original paragons of Lawful Good and Lawful Evil are dead, and a Chaotic god has a home realm in the Heavens of all places. Law is essentially scrambling to recover but is definitely on the losing side at the moment; Chaos, however, being Chaos, has done nothing with its de facto victory but sit on it going "neener neener!"

That facet is as much about creating cool villains for your PCs to fight as anything else.

Every hero should have a nemesis or two.

As for Freedom, the deity who most exemplifies that concept already is one of Nexus's most hated enemies, but also far too powerful for Nexus to take on (alone) with any chance of success. It's the ruler of the Good gods, a Greater God who also happens to be one of the three gods of Magic (the Triad who split Magic are the rulers of the other deities in my game). That god's holy warriors are called Freedom Knights, and both those and Favored Souls devoted to him can get Freedom of Movement as a granted power... you get the idea. With a god like him in the cosmos, Slavery is actually the concept that's on the metaphorical ropes.

Freedom Knights sound cool.

Now, that would be very nice to see in the next update! Since it is, in fact, exactly what's being undertaken here, and all. Do you have anything close to actual rules for that, or just generic notes that haven't really been hammered into details yet? Either way, I seem to have an obvious playtest situation for them on my hands now.

Don't expect to see it in the next one. One or two technical issues still to iron out and I have my head n the Portfolios/Powers at the moment.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante dude!

As to War Dragons arguments and objections...I wouldnt worry too much Krusty. He blatantly disregards preexisting rules and regulations within the confines of Dungeons and Dragons and is very disrespectful in general of free thinking and artistic integrity.

I really think you should apologise to WarDragon who is only offering constructive criticism - which I very much appreciate.

Theres no need to be rude, no matter how veiled you may think your comments. I don't need to remind you what happened to you and your friend over at dicefreaks.

I haven't exercised my rights as a moderator yet, and I don't want to have to.

So no more personal comments.

Youve been doing great work so I wouldnt worry about bleeding classes into other classes or changing many of the Divine and Cosmic abilities as they are currently nearly perfect.

While I appreciate your support it would be foolish of me not to examine every element brought to my attention.

In retrospect...you may want to do an update on the Epic Bestiary PDF once Ascension is complete though. It wouldn't need many revisions, just a small handfull. Notably some manner of indicating which abilities are derived strictly from divine templates (you could make a little D in the upper right corner or something to that effect). And perhaps a note or two regarding maven and omnicompetent. These minor adjustments would make advancing monsters easier. That way nobody adds too many or too few divine abilities when advancing mosters. This way we'll know which abilities to strip divinities of in the event that they lose their divinity or are imprisoned. As some abilities would be purely racial (immunities, spell-like abilities, ect.) it would be nice to know which ones are strictly divine. Unless there is some indicator to indicate an ability as divine or mortal, everyone will be wracking their brains when such an event comes to pass.

For example...An Anakim loses it's divinity. It has a plethora of spell-like abilities and other abilities. Which of these are divine and which are nondivine. Given an Anakim is supposed to be divine...but which abilities would it be stripped of and which would it retain. The same applies to a Seraphim. Which abilities would it lose if it were stripped of it's divinity.

Currently Im working on a Malakim and a Maskim that were stripped of their divinity for falling in love, though I dont know where to start. What do they lose without a single divine rank, what do they retain? As there are no indicators indicating which abilities are divine, I have no idea what they would lose.

Make it up.

Once you know the divine rank, such things shouldn't be too hard to work out.

I don't plan on updating the Bestiary beyond what I already have done with regards the print version. You realise of course most of the monsters were finished about 18 months ago and you are suggesting I go back and reverse engineer each entry to bring them up to Ascension specifications. I don't see that as the best use of my time.

You should also add all Epic Bestiary Divine, Cosmic, Ect. abilities to the lists. Like the Gibborim's GOD WOMB...he he he...and others that are equally fun.

Glad you like them, but some things should be unique, and I already have so darn many abilities that I don't really need to add more.

Perhaps if I am struggling to come up with new powers in the future they will show up as abilities in a future product.

As for Alter Reality...Id always liked WOTC variation on Alter Reality. It was quite flexible, wish leaves too many loopholes. Since their version is open game content, you could adapt it to your liking. This might make it the most complicated ability, but Altering Reality is never simple.

I always thought their version was a bit too flexible.

Im looking forward too seeing what you think, just tossing out some ideas.

Thanks for the ideas mate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings.

Hey WarDragon mate!

Here's how I would do it.

Divine Spellcaster (Ex)
Prerequisites: ability to cast spells of the normal maximum level in a spellcasting class, spellcasting ability 40
Benefit: Your base spells per day for one spellcasting class are doubled, as if you were wearing rings of wizardry for every level of spells you can cast.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must decide whether its effects stack (remember that two doublings equal a tripling), or apply to a different spellcasting class.

Divine Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: ability to cast spells of the normal maximum level in a spellcasting class, spellcasting ability 40
Benefit: Your number of spells known for one spellcasting class are doubled.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must decide whether its effects stack (remember that two doublings equal a tripling), or apply to a different spellcasting class.

Cosmic Spellcaster (Ex)
Prerequisites: Divine Spellcaster, spellcasting ability 70
Benefit: You may cast an infinite number of spells per day.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time it is taken, it must apply to a different spellcasting class.

Cosmic Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: Divine Spell Knowledge, spellcasting ability 70
Benefit: You know all spells from your normal class list.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

Transcendental Spell Knowledge (Ex)
Prerequisites: Must know all spells from own class list, spellcasting ability 130
Benefit: You know all spells from all class lists. If you were originally a divine spellcaster, you cast arcane spells as divine, and vice versa.
Special: You can take this ability more than once. Each time you take it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

Notice that this does still produce the "bleeding" effect you wanted, just not until the Cosmic level. At that point, the only difference is that spontaneous casters have to take a full round when using metamagic without Automatic Metamagic Capacity (or Rapid Metamagic, in the new Complete Mage book).

I like your Special line.

Not sure about the Transcendental power though.

Also what do you mean by the prerequisite "Spellcasting Ability 40" (for instance)?

I wish the spellcasting classes were more distinct, personally; chalk it up to poor design on the part of the people writing the 3.0 PHB.

Now you see my point.

As for Alter Reality, just keep it as-is. Even wish can't duplicate arcane 9th level spells, or divine 8th and 9th level spells. Not to mention the fact that metamagic can't be applied to spell-like or supernatural abilities.

I wouldn't let that stop automatic metamagic capacity.

I would not let a spell or magic item fulfill prerequisites for another feat or ability, no.

I meant duplicate the ability itself, not act as prereqs.

Not explicitly; again, I call this a flaw in the classes themselves.

Well then you see my problem.

Interesting... what about creatures born with the deific templates? Same deal?

One alternative might be to give them surrogate Hit Dice until they gain some classes.

Even though this was not directed at me, I can't ignore it. Now, you're just being deliberately insulting. Because I happen to respectfully disagree with Upper_Krust, and I state my opinion that a Fighter should be different from a Barbarian, and a Sorcerer from a Wizard, as the flavor text of the classes implies, I'm being disrespectful of artistic integrity? And how have I "blatantly disregarded" any "preexisting rules and regulations" of D&D?

I am sure dante won't be making any further comments on the matter unless its to apologise.

If anything, I'm the one trying to keep things closer to the base rules, and Krusty's the radical.

Power to the people!

No, that was not an assault on his "artistic integrity." For the most part, I think U_K has done an absolutely awesome job with the Immortal's Handbook so far,

What do you mean..."For the most part"?

Only messing with you dude.

 

[Fieari]

As for Alter Reality, just keep it as-is. Even wish can't duplicate arcane 9th level spells, or divine 8th and 9th level spells. Not to mention the fact that metamagic can't be applied to spell-like or supernatural abilities.

I wouldn't let that stop automatic metamagic capacity.

You know... the 3.0 Monster Manual II had the Phoenix in it, and the phoenix had a very interesting (and I think unique throughout all the various books) ability that allowed it to apply normal metamagic feats to its spell like abilities, with no other restriction other than it casts metamagic'd SLAs as a full round action.

That could make for a decent Divine Ability... and allow it to combine with AMC.

 

[WarDragon]

Hey WarDragon mate!

Yo.

I like your Special line.

Not sure about the Transcendental power though.

Also what do you mean by the prerequisite "Spellcasting Ability 40" (for instance)?

Thanks. By "not sure," do you mean it's too weak, or too strong? The prerequisite means that a Sorcerer or Bard would need 40 Charisma to take the ability, a Wizard would need 40 Intelligence, a Cleric or Druid 40 Wisdom, etc..

Now you see my point.

Heh, yeah. Once I started writing those out, I realized I'd done what I was railing against.

I wouldn't let that stop automatic metamagic capacity.

If it works for SLAs as well as spells, it should specify that in the feat. That reminds me; the feat should also specify that it doesn't increase the casting time of spontaneous spells, if it's meant to be a true replacement for Automatic Quicken. I assumed that was the case, but...

I meant duplicate the ability itself, not act as prereqs.

Just so we're clear, you mean one wish per rage, right? Not wishing to rage as a Barb of your level, or something like that? If that is what you mean, I have no objection.

Well then you see my problem.

Indeed.

One alternative might be to give them surrogate Hit Dice until they gain some classes.

Interesting. Outsider HD, I would presume?

I am sure dante won't be making any further comments on the matter unless its to apologise.

Nor shall I.

Power to the people!

Muwhahaha.

What do you mean..."For the most part"?

Only messing with you dude.

All the suggestions I've made here and at DF, and you need to ask?

 

[Alzrius]

e.g. Demogorgons sponsorship with Saint Kazgoroth the death knight may well be to steal worshippers away from Orcus.

Actually, his name is Saint Kargoth. Kazgoroth was the Darkwalker, from the Moonshae Trilogy in the Forgotten Realms. I got that wrong too.