Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[dante58701]

Regarding 4.0

Im never going to buy anything beyond 3.5. Anything beyond 3.5 at this state is more or less a waste of good money and paper. Sure 3.5 is a bit buggy, but most people by this point have invested far too much money to go for yet another switch. We, the collective gaming groups of my city and many others, just dont feel like blowing a stack of cash every time WOTC wants to milk the system for all it's worth and rip people off repetitiously by mildly changing the sytem to a so-called "new version" or even a "new version" that seems snappy and fresh at the time. We much prefer keeping things the same and expanding upon what already exists with excellent products such as the Immortals Handbook series.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Regarding 4.0

Im never going to buy anything beyond 3.5. Anything beyond 3.5 at this state is more or less a waste of good money and paper. Sure 3.5 is a bit buggy, but most people by this point have invested far too much money to go for yet another switch. We, the collective gaming groups of my city and many others, just dont feel like blowing a stack of cash every time WOTC wants to milk the system for all it's worth and rip people off repetitiously by mildly changing the sytem to a so-called "new version" or even a "new version" that seems snappy and fresh at the time. We much prefer keeping things the same and expanding upon what already exists with excellent products such as the Immortals Handbook series.

I don't think WotC has even a 4.0 planned. (unless you have some inside information)
I also don't see too much a need for a system like that. Sure, the 3.0->3.5 changes were necessary to resolve some game balance issues (Though I don't always agree with every instance) but I don't think they were purely out to make more money. (If they were indeed money-hungery, they wouldn't have proposed that Open gaming licence everyone loves so much)

The times of old-school d&d are kind of over, and the rules favor a more modern storytelling that says the players always win and can pull off rediculous stunts. (I read an Wiz' Forum post about 10th level halflings longjumping and getting 1-minute hangtime. Totally absurd.)

I generally find the "basic setting" created by directly applying DMG rules (IE Greyhawk with 3.x addendums) to be a little too "cutesie" and "unimpressive" for my tastes at times: "Oh no Bob suffered a horrible death at the hands of the death knight Bloodbathatron, quickly to the nearest town larger than a thorpe, for the community generation rules say statistically there will be a person there who can cast raise dead!, And while we are at it we can get my 'permenent' ability drain cured too." -oh boy, that drain sure sounds scary if it wasn't so easily cured.
or: "We have 50000 gp? Let's go buy a +5 sword because every major city sells them because they are under the GP limit." -Kindof makes magic weapons seem common, huh?
Yes, I am being sarcastic, and these are relatively minor things that have to do with the feel of the game, which groups can tailor for themselves.

3.5 had some generally minor changes, some of which, like their improvements to Rangers and their modifications to the damage reduction rules (Now it takes more than just a +4 sword to hurt a god), I really liked. The rules released later for swift and immediate actions are also useful. (Though if you have read Book of 9 swords, WotC really abused the swift and immediate actions quite a bit, making them a resource almost as important as Hitpoints in that book)

U_K has a nice system going for him, and while the standard d20 rules break down past 20th (and frequently before it), U_K has the foresight to get things working with as few changes as possible. With the complete Immortal's Handbook book set, the entire upper spectrum of gameplay will be mapped out.

Does 3.5 have problems? Heck yes! But they can be dealt with via Common sense. As long as the books keep selling, 3.5 will stick around. (And if they do eventually have to erratta the rules again, a 3.75 or a 4.0 will probably be largely the same as the current incarnation.)

 

[dante58701]

Agreed

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb dude!

I don't think WotC has even a 4.0 planned. (unless you have some inside information)

The idea that they are not already planning it would be unthinkable to me.

No I don't have any inside information, but I certainly see the signing of Mike Mearls by WotC as the first step on the road to 4th Edition. Hes a good designer, and I liked some of the logic he puts into his design.

I also don't see too much a need for a system like that.

A system like what? How do you know whether you will like it if you haven't seen it yet?

I look at 3.5 and I see hundreds of ways to improve things (some of which I use in my own books, but others would be too integral).

Sure, the 3.0->3.5 changes were necessary to resolve some game balance issues (Though I don't always agree with every instance) but I don't think they were purely out to make more money. (If they were indeed money-hungery, they wouldn't have proposed that Open gaming licence everyone loves so much)

Obviously the company is there to make a profit but I just see 4th Ed. as the next logical step. Its not 'if' 4th Edition will happen but simply 'when'.

The times of old-school d&d are kind of over, and the rules favor a more modern storytelling that says the players always win and can pull off rediculous stunts. (I read an Wiz' Forum post about 10th level halflings longjumping and getting 1-minute hangtime. Totally absurd.)

I think you have to move with the times. As for saying players always win, all you need to solve that is a tough DM.

I generally find the "basic setting" created by directly applying DMG rules (IE Greyhawk with 3.x addendums) to be a little too "cutesie" and "unimpressive" for my tastes at times: "Oh no Bob suffered a horrible death at the hands of the death knight Bloodbathatron, quickly to the nearest town larger than a thorpe, for the community generation rules say statistically there will be a person there who can cast raise dead!, And while we are at it we can get my 'permenent' ability drain cured too." -oh boy, that drain sure sounds scary if it wasn't so easily cured.
or: "We have 50000 gp? Let's go buy a +5 sword because every major city sells them because they are under the GP limit." -Kindof makes magic weapons seem common, huh?
Yes, I am being sarcastic, and these are relatively minor things that have to do with the feel of the game, which groups can tailor for themselves.

But all that assumes players are familiar with the DMG.

3.5 had some generally minor changes, some of which, like their improvements to Rangers and their modifications to the damage reduction rules (Now it takes more than just a +4 sword to hurt a god), I really liked. The rules released later for swift and immediate actions are also useful. (Though if you have read Book of 9 swords, WotC really abused the swift and immediate actions quite a bit, making them a resource almost as important as Hitpoints in that book).

I have it ordered.

U_K has a nice system going for him, and while the standard d20 rules break down past 20th (and frequently before it), U_K has the foresight to get things working with as few changes as possible. With the complete Immortal's Handbook book set, the entire upper spectrum of gameplay will be mapped out.

Does 3.5 have problems? Heck yes! But they can be dealt with via Common sense. As long as the books keep selling, 3.5 will stick around. (And if they do eventually have to erratta the rules again, a 3.75 or a 4.0 will probably be largely the same as the current incarnation.)

I don't think 4.0 will be anything like 3.5. I really see a paradigm shift this time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari dude!

Okay, time to get picky! Note that as is, the entire feat list is readable and usable. These are just little tiny editor-type issues I have.

Thanks again for the help mate.

A few comments.

Mastery of the Charge (#67): The name is too awesome for the weak benefit it gives you.

You understand of course that it would probably take up to two hours work at this stage just to change the name (due to all the numerical changes that would cause). Hence my reluctance.

Nosodic (#72): The more I think about this feat, the more I agree with others that it's too powerful. Maybe as a Divine ability instead? Possibly even transcendant, to be honest.

I have an idea for this - I think you will like it.

Furthermore, you might want to consider classifying this as a [Vile] ability. Oh, and similarly to the Cancer Mage, allow it to still effect charisma, but have flavor text specifying that appearance changes still take place.

If 'vile' was part of the SRD I would already had numerous vile based feats and powers.

Phrenology (#77): Not a mistake, I just wanted to comment that if you have phrenology, it would be amusing to also include retro-phrenology. Heehee. Hit someone on the head with a hammer to change their personality.

Shield Mastery (#85): Would not being able to use a 2-handed weapon be considered a penalty? That is to say, would this allow you to go "Greatsword and board"?

I think you would still need something like Monkey Grip for that. Properly wielding an oversized weapon requires more than mere strength.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I notice you haven't cleared up the issues I suggested on DF with the Divine Feats, as you said you were going to.

My memory is like a seive.

Bane Effect; why should every deity with a hatred for a specific race have to be a ranger? Kurtulmak, for example; dude hates gnomes something fierce, and would love a Gnome-bane Strike, but he's more the sorcerer/rogue type.

I didn't change the ability listing (Rangers need all the love they can get), but someone with a racial portfolio can automatically gain the Bane effect against a racial enemy.

So Corellon would have this against Orcs, Kurtulmak would have this against Gnomes and so forth.

Shouldn't Perfect Weapon Focus and Specialization list the Uncanny versions as prerequisites?

No.

Quantum Effect; I'd have it require a Chaotic alignment, due to the random element.

Its a tricky one, probability is linked to Fate but is different from Chaos/Thought.

Chaos/Thought was meant to have Ectenic Effect, but ironically I couldn't think up an apt enough power modifier.

Soldier of Fortune; cool idea, but I thought immortals typically didn't have wealth except for artifacts?

Wealth deities gain bonus quintessence dependant upon how much material wealth they posess.

Can Thieving Effect target artifacts?

Yes but only for 1d4 rounds.

Uncanny Dodge lets you apply twice your Dex bonus to AC?

Technically yes, although its once as a Dex bonus and once as a Dodge bonus.

Alter Reality; isn't the free action part a bit much? I would also give it an ability score prerequisite, with Charisma making the most sense.

I made a few changes to Alter Reality.

Doombringer; how long does the reduction last? Or is "maximum" a typo?

The damage is based on your max hp, and it lasts until healed.

Enlightened; I notice sorcerers are still left out in the cold, with no way to know every spell ever.

Theres always cosmic nescience, or taking 1 level of Wizard.

Why is Extra Portfolio Cosmic, and not Divine?

Simply because by the time you could fairly gain it (demi-power) it would be worth at least +3 CR (and +6 by Intermediate, +8 by greater). There is no way it is a divine power.

Sneaky Critical might, might fit better as Divine than Cosmic. Not sure on this one.

Its one of those betwixt and between ones I think. I erred on the side of caution to prevent abuse.

Spell Dissolution is soooooo not worth a Cosmic Ability. The Arcane Strike feat, which is available at 9th level for most builds that would want it, is very nearly as good, giving a +X to hit and +Xd4 damage to every attack in a single round (X being the level of the slot expended, of course). Can't be used with Epic spells, admittedly. Still makes this a total waste.

I made a few changes.

Storm of Arrows; you meant a full attack against every target in range, right? Otherwise, this sucks out loud.

I disagree. Stand on a hilltop overlooking an army of 100,000 and you would gain 100,000 attacks/round. Thats helluva powerful.

Thelemic Effect; no save to avoid being erased?

No.

Uncanny Smiting; some smites, like that granted by the Destruction domain, already affect things of any alignment.

Its a weird one, I don't know what to do for the best. I will leave it in for the moment and think about it.

If Astro Effect can get to 100% or above, that's a problem.

I totally changed it.

Paradox; why Dexterity as a prereq?

Its a time based power.

Infinite Strength; should specify that it cancels out Omnific Toughness, as well as Infinite Constitution. Is Infinite Dex really canceled only by itself?

Its just annoying that D&D gives you a bonus to hit based on your strength - totally illogical.

Other than these minor nitpicks, and Fieri said, looking good.

I had the powers fixed earlier this week* although the reformating took longer than expected (don't worry Alzrius, I'll have you updated tomorrow night mate). The feat packages and metamartial maneouvers are also done. I'm embroiled in the slow process of copying up Chapter 3. I now know all the portfolio abilities, so its basically only a matter of going from A to B (or A to W in this case).

*With the 8th, 9th and 10th senses still eluding me it must be said.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Iron Body (#78): It seems odd to me that this has wisdom as a prereq. Wouldn't constitution make more sense?

Constitution on a construct?

That chain of abilities is very annoying. They are all too powerful I think. I may change them so that you need to meet the strength prereq yourself - then you gain the other things like NA and DR.

I mean Orichalcum Body gives you a x192 damage multiplier for goodness sake, then you have the NA and DR bonuses to consider.

Positive Energy [Effect] (#117): It seems odd that this can damage living creatures at all, instead of healing them. Maybe you could borrow a page from the Positive Energy Plain and have this ability give living creatures temporary HP, and cause them to explode when the temporary HP exceeds their normal HP.

Its more sunlight than healing energy (for that we have Iatric [Effect]).

Super Charge (#154): "Super Charge" sounds stupid, and is too similar to "Superior" anyway. Can't you come up with a better name? "Fantastic Charge" maybe? "Awesome Charge"?

That would take about 4 hours to rename.

As a side note, I was just considering the various Damage Reduction abilities you have. For creatures possessing a natural DR/--, would it be reasonable to allow the various DR abilities to increase DR at the cost of adding weaknesses to the DR? I mean, after all, it's more INTERESTING to have foes that are weak to specific things...

+50% for one factor and +100% for two would seem balanced.

 

[Servitor of Wrath]

\Its just annoying that D&D gives you a bonus to hit based on your strength - totally illogical.

I think the reasoning there is that if you're stronger you can swing the weapon faster, thus making it harder to get out of the way. As for Strength overcoming a size bonus to Armor Class...shockwave?

 

[Phantom Llama]

Its just annoying that D&D gives you a bonus to hit based on your strength - totally illogical.

A greater strength enables the weapon to be swung faster, to penetrate armour or hide, and makes it harder to deflect the blow. There are circumstances were it doesn't work, but there's a basis for the mechanic.

 

[WarDragon]

Hiya mate!

Yo.

My memory is like a seive.

Heh. That explains a lot.

I didn't change the ability listing (Rangers need all the love they can get), but someone with a racial portfolio can automatically gain the Bane effect against a racial enemy.

So Corellon would have this against Orcs, Kurtulmak would have this against Gnomes and so forth.

Nicely handled.

No.

Why would an ability not have weaker versions of itself as prerequisites? Even Epic Weapon Focus/Specialization were errata'd to require the Greater versions.

Its a tricky one, probability is linked to Fate but is different from Chaos/Thought.

Chaos/Thought was meant to have Ectenic Effect, but ironically I couldn't think up an apt enough power modifier.

I see. I think.

Wealth deities gain bonus quintessence dependant upon how much material wealth they posess.

So they're actually burning Quintessence with this ability?

Yes but only for 1d4 rounds.

'Kay.

Technically yes, although its once as a Dex bonus and once as a Dodge bonus.

Still, that gives twice the return of every other "stat X to bonus Y" ability. Kind of like adding twice your Con to hit points with every die.

I made a few changes to Alter Reality.

Can't wait to see!

The damage is based on your max hp, and it lasts until healed.

Ah, I see. The way it was worded, it sounded like the target's maximum hit points were being reduced, and therefore, could not be healed at all. This makes sense.

Theres always cosmic nescience, or taking 1 level of Wizard.

Or wasting a feat and having high Int, yeah....

Simply because by the time you could fairly gain it (demi-power) it would be worth at least +3 CR (and +6 by Intermediate, +8 by greater). There is no way it is a divine power.

Its one of those betwixt and between ones I think. I erred on the side of caution to prevent abuse.

Fair enough.

I made a few changes.

Of course. Looking forward to seeing them!

I disagree. Stand on a hilltop overlooking an army of 100,000 and you would gain 100,000 attacks/round. Thats helluva powerful.

Bah. Any horde of 100,000 is either going down no matter what you do, or can't be defeated no matter what you do, regardless of whether you can hit them all at once.

No.

And... it's balanced how?

Its a weird one, I don't know what to do for the best. I will leave it in for the moment and think about it.

Okay.

I totally changed it.

I shall reserve judgment, then.

Its a time based power.

Hmm. A mental stat would make more sense to me, still.

Its just annoying that D&D gives you a bonus to hit based on your strength - totally illogical.

Not really, no. There's the "force = speed" logic posed by SoW, and strength translates to battering down or breaking shields and armor to squish the fleshy bits beneath.

I had the powers fixed earlier this week* although the reformating took longer than expected (don't worry Alzrius, I'll have you updated tomorrow night mate). The feat packages and metamartial maneouvers are also done. I'm embroiled in the slow process of copying up Chapter 3. I now know all the portfolio abilities, so its basically only a matter of going from A to B (or A to W in this case).

Awesome!

*With the 8th, 9th and 10th senses still eluding me it must be said.

Yeah... I really have no idea where those could go and not be game-breaking.