improved grapple for a creature with slam

[daemonslye]

quick question:

does a creature (say, a giant with a slam attack; eg. it is
considered armed (with a "natural weapon") even when
unarmed) need the feat improved unarmed strike to
gain the feat, improved grapple?

Thanks ~D

 

[Egres]

quick question:

does a creature (say, a giant with a slam attack; eg. it is
considered armed (with a "natural weapon") even when
unarmed) need the feat improved unarmed strike to
gain the feat, improved grapple?

Thanks ~D

Are you talking about this creature?

From the SRD:

BARBED DEVIL (HAMATULA)
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 12d8+72 (126 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (+6 Dex, +13 natural) touch 16, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+22
Attack: Claw +18 melee (2d8+6 plus fear)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (2d8+6 plus fear)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fear, improved grab, impale 3d8+9, summon devil
Special Qualities: Barbed defense, damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 23, spell-like abilities, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +12
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 23, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: Concentration +21, Diplomacy +6, Hide +21, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (any one) +16, Listen +19, Move Silently +21, Search +16, Sense Motive +17, Spot +19, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Power Attack

 

[shilsen]

As Egres just indicated, the answer is - No.

 

[Hypersmurf]

[frown]

I don't agree with that - it looks like the Hamatula creator screwed up...

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

[frown]

I don't agree with that - it looks like the Hamatula creator screwed up...

-Hyp.

Then so did the creator of the Bebilith. Though weirdly enough, its stat block doesn't include the benefit from Improved Grapple, though it's listed among its feats.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are they marked with a superscript B, meaning they are bonus feats for which the prereqs need not be met?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are they marked with a superscript B, meaning they are bonus feats for which the prereqs need not be met?

No.

And having a natural weapon is not the same as not provoking an AoO with an unarmed strike.

If the Hamatula decides to punch someone at +18/+13/+8 for 1d3+6 non-lethal damage and claw once at +13 for 2d8+3, instead of two claws +18 for 2d8+6, he draws AoOs for the unarmed strikes.

He doesn't have the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, so he can't qualify for feats that have it as a prerequisite.

-Hyp.

 

[daemonslye]

Nope not talking Devils at all. And no "B's"
to be found in the MM.

OK - So the Bebilith and Hamatula both have
improved grapple without "improved unarmed
strike". Even if the stat block does not include
the bonus (oddly the bebilith does not include
the bonus in its +29 grapple and the hamatula,
assuming a medium size, +12 BAB, 23 STR (+6),
AND improved grapple is a +23 (not +22)) it
seems as if these creatures, by virtue of having
natural weapons, are considered to have the
prereq for improved grapple.

My particular case is a giant (which has a "natural"
slam attack while unarmed) that takes improved
grapple as a feat. Thanks for the input (FYI - I have
not done any further analysis on any other
monster other than those listed here and do not have
further data points).

~D

 

[Egres]

assuming a medium size, +12 BAB, 23 STR (+6),
AND improved grapple is a +23 (not +22))

???

12+6+4=22.