Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[Oni]

From the DnD FAQ:

"Can you add a metamagic feat more than once to any particular spell? For example, double Maximize Spell, or double Extend spell?

"You can apply most metamagic feats more than once. Just stack up the cost, and remember to apply the additional effects to the basic spell. For example, if you extend a spell twice, you get 3 time the duration, not 4 times the duration. (Each extention adds 100% of the spell's base duration.)
"There are a few metamagic feats that are constructed so as to make stacking worthless or pointless. You cannot, for example get more than maximum damage out of a spell by maximizing the spell more than once. (If you want to send the spell's damage through the roof, use Empower Spell multiple times.) Heighten Spell already allows you [set] the spell's effective level anywhere you want (and can manage), so there's no point in applying the feat more than once."



So what does this mean.
1. That you can indeed stack metamagic feats, including the same on as many times as you have the appropriate level spell slots to do it, which according to this really seems to have been their original intent.
2. Seeing as there is no precedent in the core rules for buying metamagic feats more than once to use them more than once, it wasn't mentioned in a FAQ dealing with that specific situation, has not been included in any errata to the core rules that I know if (if you have exact text citing that this is not the case show it to me, please), and that buying it multiply times is listed under the special section of Enhance spell, meaning that it specifically relates to that spell, and farther more because they did not decide to list that special note with any other metamagic feat, all of this leads me to believe that you are mistaken Marshall

 

[LordAO]

If you don't like it, don't get it. It's that simple. Just because you think it is a waste, others may disagree. In some situations it rocks, in others it doesn't. But rather than spending hours ranting about it (which will change nothing), just don't have your character get it. Nothing forces it upon you.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I can see the use of all the feats mentioned in this post, but incresed spell capacity simply means more spells. If you bumped up all your spells to higher slots, as opposed to making tho metamagics less exspensive, you end up with a net gain of more spell slots. Granted, they are low level slots, but imagine being able to shield the whole party, more magic missiles, more acid arrows. Basic simple spells of third and below you can never have too many of.

 

[drnuncheon]

OK, here's my question then...

Why bother with Enhance Spell at all? It 'costs' 4 spell levels and basically doubles your effectiveness - if you're of a high enough level to use the extra dice.

Twin Spell 'costs' 4 levels and basically doubles your effectiveness, too, and you only have to be a high enough level to max out your normal damage cap. Plus you can use it on non-damaging spells, spells that don't have a damage cap (like magic missile, Melf's acid arrow, etc.) and you can stack it as many times as you like. (Quintupleted magic missile?)

So...why would anyone bother with taking Enhance Spell? Am I missing something?

J

 

[Johno]

Twin spell twins the spell.

Enhance spell grants you access to a greater number of damage die according to your level.

So if you are 25th level and cast a Twinned Fireball you do 2x10d6 damage. But the target(s) gets two reflex saves, versus each spell.

As I ubderstand Ehnace Spell feat (no ELH), if you cast an Enhanced Fireball as a 25th level spell, you do 20d6 damage, and the targets only get one save.

If you cast a Twinned Enhanced Fireball spell, then you are stuffed, as the rules are written today.

IMC, twinning a spell does indeed twin the metamagicked spell, as you are paying through the nose for the effect any way...

 

[drnuncheon]

So if you are 25th level and cast a Twinned Fireball you do 2x10d6 damage. But the target(s) gets two reflex saves, versus each spell.

Right. I considered that, but I don't see it as being much of a balancing factor or drawback. It's just going to move the average closer to the center by minimizing the effects of a single aberrant save roll. It will work for you sometimes and against you sometimes.

J

 

[Marshall]

From the DnD FAQ:

So what does this mean.
1. That you can indeed stack metamagic feats, including the same on as many times as you have the appropriate level spell slots to do it, which according to this really seems to have been their original intent.

Actually it means the designers are having second thoughts and the FAQ gets updated once-a-millenia. Or it could mean that the random ramblings that led to this "ruling" have now thoroughly been studied and the correct conclusion has been reached. ie Stacking MM effects is a quick way to 'break' MM.

2. Seeing as there is no precedent in the core rules for buying metamagic feats more than once to use them more than once, it wasn't mentioned in a FAQ dealing with that specific situation, has not been included in any errata to the core rules that I know if (if you have exact text citing that this is not the case show it to me, please), and that buying it multiply times is listed under the special section of Enhance spell, meaning that it specifically relates to that spell, and farther more because they did not decide to list that special note with any other metamagic feat, all of this leads me to believe that you are mistaken Marshall

Sure pg 54 ELH, since it is now the most recent rulebook, overrides the outdated FAQ. Since no other MM feat lists any way to stack, There isnt.

More proof?

Lets study Enhance

a +4 level feat that adds 10 to the cap meaning you still have to have the CL to actually get the dice. This is an Epic feat. In order to Enhance multiple times, you must purchase the feat multiple times.

Compare to Empower

a +2 level feat that increases the damage dice by 1.5 times or 5 dice on a 10 dice cap spell. Hmmm, for exactly half the levels I get exactly half the benefit of the Epic feat.

Now lets go with your 'Stacking' theory.

I Enhance Fireball for a total of 20d6 at 21st CL, the minimum to cast a 7th level spell with an Epic feat.

I Empower Empower Fireball for a total of 20d6 at 13th level the minimum to cast the 7th level spell.

So multi Empower is available 8 levels earlier and is exactly the same as Enhance. Strike One. It gets worse.

At 17th level I come into 9th level spells, Lets 3xEmpower Fireball in that slot. Now, I have 25d6 and its still 4 levels until the EPIC Enhance shows up. Strike Two.

Lets go a little farther shall we. Actually going Epic, now I pick up 11th level slots and we can 4x Empower our [/i]Fire Ball[/i] for 30d6. Our Enhance companion is still stuck with his 20d6 unless he spends another feat on top of those required to get 11th level slots and then he still only matches us, if he has a CL30. Ours doesnt matter since Empower is still working off the CL10 we passed long ago. I'm still not done, our Enhance friend cant even use the 13th level slot where Empower goes to 35d6, and 15th slot costs yet another feat instead of just rising to 40d6, oh yeah If at CL40. Sorry, Strike Three.

Even worse, Enhance has no effect on spells that dont have a dam. cap. Where are super-stackers just keep racking up the bonuses. Strike 4-27! A perfect game!

Sorry Oni, the ELH overrides the FAQ, without that little 'special' bonus MM ceased stacking.

 

[Marshall]

OK, here's my question then...

Why bother with Enhance Spell at all? It 'costs' 4 spell levels and basically doubles your effectiveness - if you're of a high enough level to use the extra dice.

Twin Spell 'costs' 4 levels and basically doubles your effectiveness, too, and you only have to be a high enough level to max out your normal damage cap. Plus you can use it on non-damaging spells, spells that don't have a damage cap (like magic missile, Melf's acid arrow, etc.) and you can stack it as many times as you like. (Quintupleted magic missile?)

So...why would anyone bother with taking Enhance Spell? Am I missing something?

J

Because Twinned is yet another argument against stacking MM. Why Twin at all when you could just 2xEmpower for the same cost and get Double str Bull Strength and Melfs?

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Because Twinned is yet another argument against stacking MM. Why Twin at all when you could just 2xEmpower for the same cost and get Double str Bull Strength and Melfs?

Exactly!

My guess is, pre-3e, when this system was in playtesting, metamagic was applied only once. I feel that way because the first time I read through the PBH, I never even conceived of stacking the same matamagic feats, there was no hint of it anywhere in any of the core books.

A few weeks after the core books were released, someone, somewhere asked about stacking like metamagic (meaning empower) and after enough noise was made on boards like this, someone at wizards decided, "what the heck, I see no problem with it, pay for it in higher spell slots and only apply meta to the base spell, no harm done."

Well there is harm done, because of the stacking of empower on itself, there is no reason to take:
1. Twin Spell
2. Maximize Spell
3. Enhance Spell
4. Intesify Spell

Someone may be able to make a case for Maximize Spell for lower level casters, but once you get 8th level spell slots and up, you may as well stack Empower and forget about Maximize.

 

[Crothian]

Twin is made more for enchanment spells I think. Least, that's what I normally use it for. A twined hold monster is one of my favorites.

For damaging spells and many buff me spells, I think you are right though. With the Improved Metamagic feat, empower becomes spell level +1 and easily out distances the rest.