Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[drnuncheon]

Re: THE ANSWER

Who needs the Sage when you've got me around?

I'm not coming up with anything TOO brilliant here, though . . .

Guys, with Enhance Spell vs. Intensify Spell vs. Empower Spell, we've been looking at it ALL WRONG! Duh!! This is so silly!!!

We've all said crap about how this combo does this and that combo does that, but we haven't actually APPLIED these theories to realistic circumstances in the game as of yet!

Speak for yourself. I've been doing this from the start...

As you can see, although Empower Spell wins, it does so only by a very slight margin, and it taks a MUCH higher level spell to do so!

First of all, your exmaples mix all sorts of different spells. Not a wise idea as it can very easily confuse the issue.
Second, your Wizard #4 is using Intensify Spell even though he doesn't have it. Did you mean 'Maximize' perhaps, as that is a prerequisite for Enhance?

Wizard 4 (with 3xIMM, 3xISC, Enh & Max) should be doing:
120 hp with his Maximized Enhanced fireball (5th level spell)
440 hp of damage with his Maximized 3xEnhanced Horrid Wilting (12th level spell).

For your 10th level spell example for Wizard 4, I am very confused. A 2xEnhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball is a 22nd level spell, or in this case (with 3 IMM feats) it is 13th. (7 + 1 + 1 + 4 = 13)

A 3xEnhanced, Intensified, normal fireball would be possible, doing 480 hp of damage for a 10th level spell. Is that what you meant?

I suggest you go back and check your examples. While your conclusions are sound - Enhance is most definitely worthwhile if used properly - the method you used to reach it is not.

J

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: THE ANSWER

First of all, your exmaples mix all sorts of different spells.

That was the idea, actually. Not every single wizard's best spell selection is the same, and so it's only right to compare spells of equal LEVEL, not merely the same spell over and over. To demonstrate what each wizard is capable of at each level. So I took each particular wizard's "best" spell of those levels.

Not a wise idea as it can very easily confuse the issue.
Second, your Wizard #4 is using Intensify Spell even though he doesn't have it. Did you mean 'Maximize' perhaps, as that is a prerequisite for Enhance?

Actually, that was a typo on my part. He DOES have Intensify Spell, I just forgot to mention it when listing the feats. My writings are sometimes hard to read, and I drafted the paper in scribbles mainly.

Wizard 4 (with 3xIMM, 3xISC, Enh & Max) should be doing:
120 hp with his Maximized Enhanced fireball (5th level spell)
440 hp of damage with his Maximized 3xEnhanced Horrid Wilting (12th level spell).

Whoops, I forgot that Horrid Wilting deals in d8 instead of d6 damage. Hehehe . . . Well that just bumps up the damage of all four wizards, so no harm no foul . . .

For your 10th level spell example for Wizard 4, I am very confused. A 2xEnhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball is a 22nd level spell, or in this case (with 3 IMM feats) it is 13th. (7 + 1 + 1 + 4 = 13)

NOW you got me . . . . . . What am I smoking here? Intensify Spell is SEVEN levels higher . . . Wow, in that case, Intensify Spell is NEVER useful (don't quote me yet, I'm gonna redo the math here real soon), although it doesn't change the fact that Enhance Spell isn't as useless and stupid as I really thought, which was the real subject of the debate, Enhance vs. Empower.

A 3xEnhanced, Intensified, normal fireball would be possible, doing 480 hp of damage for a 10th level spell. Is that what you meant?

I suggest you go back and check your examples. While your conclusions are sound - Enhance is most definitely worthwhile if used properly - the method you used to reach it is not.

J

I'll do that right away, and come back to report my findings.

Thank you for pointing out the errors. I'll be back soon . . .

 

[Anubis]

Okay, after going back and doing the math once again with the correct figures, here are the results I have obtained.

First, the basics: ISC=Improved Spell Capacity, ES=Enhance Spell, IS=Intensify Spell, IM=Improved Metamagic.

Here are the wizards, each Level 35 with 10 feats in epic levels . . . Wizard 1: ISCx9, IM . . . Wizard 2: ISCx2, ES, IS, IMx6 . . . Wizard 3: ISCx6, ES, IMx3 . . . Wizard 4: ISC, ESx2, IS, IMx6 . . .

Here's the math, with each Wizard casting the same level spells along with their most powerful spell, including average damage where applicable:

Note: I am giving the range of damage instead of actually showing the math and dice, because only people who already know the game math basics (such as average d6 damage is 3.5 and average d8 damage is 4.5, or that you round all fractions down) about how the damage dice work and such need bother reading this. To others, this will mean almost nothing.

5th level spell:

Wizard 1: 2x Empowered Fireball; 20-120 damage, average 70
Wizard 2: Enhanced Intensified Fireball; 240 damage
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Fireball; 30-180 damage, average 105
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Fireball; 30-180 damage, average 105

Wizard 2 wins easily with Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell, leaving the others in the dust.

10th level spell:

Wizard 1: 7x Empowered Fireball; 45-270 damage, average 157.5
Wizard 2: Intensified Meteor Swarm; 576 damage
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Horrid Wilting; 52-420 damage, average 236
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball; 420 damage

Wizard 2 wins once again, and by an even bigger margin than before.

Highest Level:

Wizard 1: 10x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 18th level spell; 145-1200 damage, average 672
Wizard 2: Enhanced 2x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 11th level spell; 69-560 damage, average 314
Wizard 3: Enhanced 6x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 15th level spell; 137-1120, average 628
Wizard 4: Enhanced Intensified Horrid Wilting; 10th level spell; 560 damage

Only now does Wizard 1, using only Empower Spell, win. Notice, however, that his most powerful spell is an 18TH LEVEL SPELL, while all the others are casting more spells at lower levels . . . You make the call as to which is truly more powerful . . .

As you can see, Empower Spell gives the most power POTENTIAL, but Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell gives you MORE spells that are nearly as powerful at MUCH lower levels! If you only plan to cast one big one, Wizard 1 is the best. If you're facing an army, better bring one of the others.

BONUS: Let's bump all four up to LEVEL 50, with all four taking nothing but ISC from then on, except for Wizard 4 who takes ESx2 on the way . . .

Most Powerful:

Wizard 1: 20x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 28th level spell; 265-2200 damage, average 1232
Wizard 2: Enhanced 12x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 21th level spell; 239-1960 damage, average 1099
Wizard 3: Enhanced 16x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 25th level spell; 307-2520, average 1413
Wizard 4: 4x Enhanced Maximized 10x Empowered Fireball; 18th level spell; 550-1800 damage, average 1175

Wizard 3, combing the tactics of his three friends but without Intensify Spell, now blows ahead of the competition.

What this shows is that Empower Spell, Enhance Spell, and Intensify Spell are ALL very useful, you just have to know how to use them right. Intensify Spell is good for guaranteed damage for when you need it, and combined with Improved Metamagic, can deliver incredible damage at very low spell levels. Enhance Spell is great for medium spell levels, especially when combined with Intensify Spell. At the highest spell levels, Intensify Spell pales in comparison to others, as Enhance Spell and Empower Spell combing to form a very potent and deadly combination.

In fact, as these four wizards gain levels, Wizard 4 will get better and better until he bypasses the others and becomes the most powerful by utilizing ALL THREE FEATS.

Alone, all three feats ARE very useful, but you must make sure to compare spell levels when comparing power. Combined, the three are deadly.

My argument before was that Empower Spell always wins in the end. The numbers do not lie, however, and that has been proven absolutely false. Yes, Empower Spell delivers the MOST damage in the end, but remember the SPELL LEVEL behind that power, and you'll quickly notice that Empower Spell isn't quite as good as you all once thought it was.

The final result of the test is that all three feats are quite useful, contrary to popular belief, including my own.

Thank you. Bye!

 

[drnuncheon]

Just a few more notes, because some of these are not the best choices of feat usage!

One thing I would mention for Wizard #2 - he shouldn't be taking IMM 6 times. 3 times is sufficient to bring his Enhances down to 1 level per, and he's only using 1 metamagic feat with a greater cost than 4 levels. At that point, IMM and ISC are equal, and he might as well buy ISC for the increased flexibility/extra spell slots. The math will work out the same for single-spell damage, though.

Same goes for Wizard #4.

5th level spell:

Wizard 1: 2x Empowered Fireball; 20-120 damage, average 70
Wizard 2: Enhanced Intensified Fireball; 240 damage
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Fireball; 30-180 damage, average 105
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Fireball; 30-180 damage, average 105

Wizard 2 wins easily with Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell, leaving the others in the dust.

Wizard 4 can do slightly better with Enhanced Maximized Fireball, doing 120 hp instead of 105 average.

10th level spell:

Wizard 1: 7x Empowered Fireball; 45-270 damage, average 157.5
Wizard 2: Intensified Meteor Swarm; 576 damage
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Horrid Wilting; 52-420 damage, average 236
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball; 420 damage

Wizard 2 wins once again, and by an even bigger margin than before.

Having the 6 IMMs (rather than 3 IMMs and 3 ISCs) does help here - but since we're dealing with 10th level spells, you're only going to have 1 slot anyway (unless you have a really high stat.)

BTW, Wizard 1 should be casting a 2xEmpowered Horrid Wilting for an average of 225 damage (and a tougher save). He could do the same damage with a 3xEmpowered Delayed Blast Fireball, too.

Highest Level:

Wizard 1: 10x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 18th level spell; 145-1200 damage, average 672
Wizard 2: Enhanced 2x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 11th level spell; 69-560 damage, average 314
Wizard 3: Enhanced 6x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 15th level spell; 137-1120, average 628
Wizard 4: Enhanced Intensified Horrid Wilting; 10th level spell; 560 damage

Only now does Wizard 1, using only Empower Spell, win. Notice, however, that his most powerful spell is an 18TH LEVEL SPELL, while all the others are casting more spells at lower levels . . . You make the call as to which is truly more powerful . . .

Does it really matter which level it is, when each of you can only cast one of them a day anyway? Unless, as previously noted, you have Int 30+ and get 10th level bonus spells.

Also, Wizards 2 and 3 should be using Maximize (required for Enhance) instead of one of the Empowers, to get 359 and 674 hp average damage respectively. (Looks like Wizard 1 doesn't win after all!) This is where Wizard 2 would have been much wiser taking only 3 levels of IMM as well...

If Wizard 4 had taken IMMx3 and ISCx4 (rather than IMMx6 and ISCx1) he could cast a 2xEnhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball for 560 damage, also. That's the same damage this level (albeit with 1 lower save DC) but next level it will do more damage than the Horrid Wilting.

Basically, to figure the optimum number of IMMs: look at the mm feats you are going to combine, and take enough IMMs to bring the second most expensive one down to 1/level. When you combine it with the most expensive one, you're getting a 2-levels-for-one deal on that feat. After that you're only saving 1 level per feat, which you can beat with Improved Spellcasting Capacity.

Needless to say, if you're stacking a feat multiple times (like Enhance) it could be both your first and second most expensive feat...

J

 

[Anubis]

Does it really matter which level it is, when each of you can only cast one of them a day anyway? Unless, as previously noted, you have Int 30+ and get 10th level bonus spells.

They're all assumed to have 34 Intelligence at Level 35, 15 normal, +5 for levels 1-20, +5 inherent, +3 epic gains, +6 enhancement.

That gives them a bonus spell each for spell levels 10-12. In reality, these wizards all probably have slightly higher Intelligence.