Invisibility + Fighter's Mark = ??

[Dracorat]

I think that last comment missed the point of a shift vs a run in the scenario.

If the target shifts, he "feels" the shift? But not if it's a run? Huh?

It's probably best if we leave the flavor text out and focus on answering the question as Smurf proposed it, which was very eloquently put.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes. He 'feels' the shift. Because a shift is not simply 'moving carefully' but 'moving defensively.' Defensive doesn't mean passive, it means actively deflecting blows. So yes, if someone stops actively deflecting your blows it makes it harder to find them then if they continue to actively deflect your blows while moving.

The flavor of it makes sense if you bother to visualize it. In terms of narrative, sometimes the abstractions do reflect active world concepts that you can visualize and describe, and if doing so helps you understand it, and the narrative works with versimiliatude, why -wouldn't- you use it?

 

[Dracorat]

Because it handles an edge case at best.

It doesn't clarify rules however. It simply makes an interpretation of rules, right or even possibly wrong, easier to swallow in this one case.

I am looking for supporting rules-based evidence.

 

[Bayuer]

When we in that sort of questions. What happend when paladin/fighter mark enemy and then he's stunned. Will the mark still work? Thats the question. Willl marked enemy have -2 to attack and take damage?

 

[Larrin]

The fighter can only using his "attack the shifting monster" power if he knows its shifting. as a DM you are under no obligation to telling him the character is shifting, and there is no amount of perception checking that can tell him the guy is shifting. He might perception check his way into knowing that the monster is no longer next to him, or maybe even discern his final square, but he can't tell if he's shifting, moving one square, teleporting one sqaure, flying one square, bunny-hopping one square or just getting so fat he takes up two squares, but then shrinks down to one square again but in the new square instead. The DM is under no obligation to tell the player what the invisible man is doing, just the end percieved results of what square he's in (possibly which squares he moved through). If you can't even get an OA off when you may well have noticed something run by you, you'll not 'see' any difference when it shifts, and you won't be able to take any usually triggered actions.

Marked effect would still apply, provided you managed to attack him, just not other triggered events.

Bottom line: the most you know about something you can't see is what square its in, that is it. You can't trigger on something you can't see, and you need to see shifting to KNOW its happening.

 

[Dracorat]

When we in that sort of questions. What happend when paladin/fighter mark enemy and then he's stunned. Will the mark still work? Thats the question. Willl marked enemy have -2 to attack and take damage?

On that one, the rules are pretty clear that they'll still take their penalty.

I am sure someone will come up with some flavor text for that happening too, but as far as the rules are concerned, the mark lasts until the end of the marking player's next turn or the mark is superceded by another mark. No other conditions exist.

In the case I asked about, I'm more or less asking what happens when (as Smurf put it) an Immediate Interruptable event is triggered on a person not aware of the trigger (or able to directly observe the trigger).

In the flavor text some people have give, they explain why someone might be aware of the trigger, but that is not actual de facto evidence that they are definitely aware of the trigger. I am not saying they definitely aren't aware of the trigger either, but I want proof one way or the other. I'm not attached to either way, I just want some good supporting rules-based evidence that points to one or the other, and also takes care of the other cases Smurf gave examples for.

 

[Dracorat]

The fighter can only using his "attack the shifting monster" power if he knows its shifting. as a DM you are under no obligation to telling him the character is shifting, and there is no amount of perception checking that can tell him the guy is shifting. He might perception check his way into knowing that the monster is no longer next to him, or maybe even discern his final square, but he can't tell if he's shifting, moving one square, teleporting one sqaure, flying one square, bunny-hopping one square or just getting so fat he takes up two squares, but then shrinks down to one square again but in the new square instead. The DM is under no obligation to tell the player what the invisible man is doing, just the end percieved results of what square he's in (possibly which squares he moved through). If you can't even get an OA off when you may well have noticed something run by you, you'll not 'see' any difference when it shifts, and you won't be able to take any usually triggered actions.

Bottom line: the most you know about something you can't see is what square its in, that is it. You can't trigger on something you can't see, and you need to see shifting to KNOW its happening.

This is the line of thinking my mind is of - now I just want the supporting rules. I know where they are for OAs - it's the immediate interrupts I'm looking for.

 

[Dracorat]

I'm bumping this up to see if with the new day, new sets of eyes upon the issue might shed some additional light.

 

[DracoSuave]

Then roll a damn Perception check then. If it's plausible he could be detected but possible he isn't, why, that sounds like some sort of 'random chance' situation. Perhaps it might be appropriate to let a 'random chance generator' device decide.

 

[DrSpunj]

I think that's the way to deal with it. A Perception check to notice something happening is not an action, IIRC, so giving him a chance to roll would solve that and could be explained away with a success by seeing an odd distortion as the invisible creature moved away (Predator Movies).

However, I could see an argument to be made that it should just fall under using the Fighter's Passive Perception instead of an actual roll to speed up play and to be fair to the invisible creature's ability though.