D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Nightfly]

So you admit that you knew there were non-AEDU classes in 4e (although you are mistaken about their only being in Essentials), but are doubling down on there not being? Interesting approach.

It's been 10-15 years, man. My memory is that every class was AEDU until pretty late in 4e's lifespan. My memory might certainly be wrong after all these years, but that doesn't mean I'm lying or arguing in bad faith.

Anyway, the rules of 4e aren't the point. I was just saying that certain balance issues are tricky unless, perhaps, you want fighters and wizards to have basically the same class setup, as was the case in original 4e. The claim has been made that it's unbalanced to have wizards get more spell slots but also more powerful spells, but that's been the case in virtually every iteration of D&D. If you dislike that setup, you don't have a bone to pick with 5e, you have a bone to pick with D&D generally. Which is fine! A lot of people don't like a lot of things about D&D. But perhaps it isn't fair to blame that on 5e in particular.

"Most of the community" did nothing of the sort. I know it is an article of faith for edition warriors that 4e was a masive commercial failure, but it was actually stupendously successful by any metric other than "Hasbro core brand".

It was not stupendously successful compared to 5e. Again, the 5e Player's Handbook is the number one gaming book on Amazon today, roughly eight years after it came out. At the comparable point after 4e's release, the number one gaming book was...also the 5e Player's Handbook, correct? That's a staggering run of success that eclipses every version of D&D ever, not just 4e. Even the Stranger Things era of my youth is dwarfed by 5e's success. That doesn't happen unless 5e is doing a lot of things right for an awful lot of people.

And by the way, I'll say again: I loved 4e. I played it a lot, I DMed it a lot. It was fun, and in some ways I miss it. I'm have no interest at all in re-litigating the edition wars of that era, and even if I did, I'd be on your side. I'm just trying to give 5e, for all its flaws, its props. It deserves them.

 

[Maxperson]

You said that a bonus action is an action, when I believe it is not. Either you were confused when you wrote that post (if only momentarily) or I have been confused for years. Either way, confusion has been witnessed.

_
glass.

Technically it is an action, it's just a special kind.

"Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action."

"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

 

[Minigiant]

It's been 10-15 years, man. My memory is that every class was AEDU until pretty late in 4e's lifespan. My memory might certainly be wrong after all these years, but that doesn't mean I'm lying or arguing in bad faith.

The non-monk psionic classes of PHB3 (2010) didn't have Encounter powers.

 

[Oofta]

It's been 10-15 years, man. My memory is that every class was AEDU until pretty late in 4e's lifespan. My memory might certainly be wrong after all these years, but that doesn't mean I'm lying or arguing in bad faith.

Anyway, the rules of 4e aren't the point. I was just saying that certain balance issues are tricky unless, perhaps, you want fighters and wizards to have basically the same class setup, as was the case in original 4e. The claim has been made that it's unbalanced to have wizards get more spell slots but also more powerful spells, but that's been the case in virtually every iteration of D&D. If you dislike that setup, you don't have a bone to pick with 5e, you have a bone to pick with D&D generally. Which is fine! A lot of people don't like a lot of things about D&D. But perhaps it isn't fair to blame that on 5e in particular.



It was not stupendously successful compared to 5e. Again, the 5e Player's Handbook is the number one gaming book on Amazon today, roughly eight years after it came out. At the comparable point after 4e's release, the number one gaming book was...also the 5e Player's Handbook, correct? That's a staggering run of success that eclipses every version of D&D ever, not just 4e. Even the Stranger Things era of my youth is dwarfed by 5e's success. That doesn't happen unless 5e is doing a lot of things right for an awful lot of people.

And by the way, I'll say again: I loved 4e. I played it a lot, I DMed it a lot. It was fun, and in some ways I miss it. I'm have no interest at all in re-litigating the edition wars of that era, and even if I did, I'd be on your side. I'm just trying to give 5e, for all its flaws, its props. It deserves them.

FWIW, I don't remember any classes that weren't AEDU until essentials either. If we're wrong, maybe specifics would help clear it up?

 

[Oofta]

The non-monk psionic classes of PHB3 (2010) didn't have Encounter powers.

So later in the life cycle. Thanks for the deets, I haven't played 4e since 5e was released.

On the other hand 1 class out of, what, a dozen or so? Not sure it really changes much.

 

[Minigiant]

So later in the life cycle. Thanks for the deets, I haven't played 4e since 5e was released.

On the other hand 1 class out of, what, a dozen or so? Not sure tlit really changes much.

Late?
2 years after release. 3 of the original 15 classes then all the Essentials ones.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You have an action every turn except when sometimes you have a bonus action, but not always.

Simple.

Way more simple than PF2's 3 actions, 4e's Standard, Move, Minor, or even 3e's Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, Free, Kittens, I Like Ike, Electric Boogaloo.

Just tell me what turn currency I need to spend to do what, Bahamuht H Io, people. Bonus actions seem to exist because they got rid of movement as a discreet action but forgot that literally everything else in the game but casting ISO standard spells and the martial's class 'swing a hard thing' five minutes before going to print. Action economy has been a thing for decades and there's really no excuse for skimping on the design there.

It's literally identical to 4e's Standard, Move, Minor, except that your movement is your whole turn until you run out.* Like that is literally what it is. They just go out of their way to obfuscate that and make it seem like Minor Bonus Actions are this totally weird thing unlocked by something rather than a resource you always have but which may not always be useful to you. Like healing word is literally a Bonus Action because that power was a Minor Action in 4e.

And people tell me I'm being ridiculous when I say 5e goes out of its way to obscure anything it actually learned from 4e...

*And that is a big part of why it confused me so. I couldn't understand what they were saying because they kept inconsistently circumlocuting it and pretending like it was this whole new and different thing when it was literally just the same system as before with "you can move whenever you like during your turn."

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's literally identical to 4e's Standard, Move, Minor, except that your movement is your whole turn until you run out. Like that is literally what it is. They just go out of their way to obfuscate that and make it seem like Minor Bonus Actions are this totally weird thing unlocked by something rather than a resource you always have but which may not always be useful to you. Like healing word is literally a Bonus Action because that power was a Minor Action in 4e.

And people tell me I'm being ridiculous when I say 5e goes out of its way to obscure anything it actually learned from 4e...

I disagree, it's the same thing except for clear labeling and other things being move actions and being able to break down an action to get extra lesser actions and also having a functional action economy.

Much like Hit Die, it's only really 4e if it got into a horrific car accident and will never be the same again. Which, sadly was the point.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So later in the life cycle. Thanks for the deets, I haven't played 4e since 5e was released.

On the other hand 1 class out of, what, a dozen or so? Not sure tlit really changes much.

As Minigiant said, it was three classes in PHB3, followed by several subclasses later on. Technically there were some Essentials classes and subclasses that still had Daily powers, but by and large they were Encounter-focused.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I disagree, it's the same thing except for clear labeling and other things being move actions and being able to break down an action to get extra lesser actions and also having a functional action economy.

Much like Hit Die, it's only really 4e if it got into a horrific car accident and will never be the same again. Which, sadly was the point.

Oh, I figured the unclear labelling was already covered by my "some actions are Actions and some are not" thing in the previous post.

 

[Parmandur]

As Minigiant said, it was three classes in PHB3, followed by several subclasses later on. Technically there were some Essentials classes and subclasses that still had Daily powers, but by and large they were Encounter-focused.

I don't think it is entirely fair to expect anyone to remember the PHB 3 happened, let alone what was in it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't think it is entirely fair to expect anyone to remember the PHB 3 happened, let alone what was in it.

...why not? The 4e Monk was a lovely class, Hybrids were an interesting (if often ineffectual) concept, and it had gith and minotaurs. The Power Point classes were an interesting experiment that provides a lovely demonstration of why common pools of powers with specialized augments can actually be very un-fun design despite being aesthetically pleasing.

I don't see why this is some horrible eyesore everyone was actively avoiding. It contributed plenty of good things to 4e, and even its weaker parts were still interesting or useful.

 

[Oofta]

Late?
2 years after release. 3 of the original 15 classes then all the Essentials ones.

I think i stopped caring about new classes after PHB II. I got the essentials books because of store credit for running games, but sorry to say I don't have a mnemonic memory for a book I may or may not have glanced at a decade ago.

 

[Parmandur]

...why not? The 4e Monk was a lovely class, Hybrids were an interesting (if often ineffectual) concept, and it had gith and minotaurs. The Power Point classes were an interesting experiment that provides a lovely demonstration of why common pools of powers with specialized augments can actually be very un-fun design despite being aesthetically pleasing.

I don't see why this is some horrible eyesore everyone was actively avoiding. It contributed plenty of good things to 4e, and even its weaker parts were still interesting or useful.

Because nobody [alert, this is hyperbole, I know somebody did, that's not the point] was paying attention by 2010. I had stopped even playing D&D by the time PHB3 came out, let alone even paying attention to what was in it.

 

[MockingBird]

I don't think it is entirely fair to expect anyone to remember the PHB 3 happened, let alone what was in it.

Yeah, we never made it that far in 4e. The whole powers thing turned us off fairly early on. I don't think I ever made it to the PHB 2. I didn't pick up 4e again until Essentials came out and even with that it was still not what I wanted from DnD.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I AM NO MAN, Wielder of the 3 Player's Handbooks, who hath combined the two halves of the Adventurer's Vaults! I am the sole wielder of the Lost Good D&D.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, we never made it that far in 4e. The whole powers thing turned us off fairly early on. I don't think I ever made it to the PHB 2. I didn't pick up 4e again until Essentials came out and even with that it was still not what I wanted from DnD.

I only ever bought the PHB 1. I had intended ahead of time to buy the MM and DMG, but changed my mind after reading the PHB and flipping through them.

 

[Parmandur]

I AM NO MAN, Wielder of the 3 Player's Handbooks, who hath combined the two halves of the Adventurer's Vaults! I am the sole wielder of the Lost Good D&D.

So the Legends say, but who can ever know for sure...? Lost in the mists of time.

 

[Ogre Mage]

One change from previous editions is that 5E has become more measured in the release of supplements. During 2E, 3.X and 4E, they ran out splatbooks like a bad case of diarrhea. It's highly questionable if that approach was good for the long-term health of the game. I doubt it was even good for TSR/WotC from a production costs/profit standpoint. So that may be another factor in the success of 5E.

 

[Oofta]

One change from previous editions is that 5E has become more measured in the release of supplements. During 2E, 3.X and 4E, they ran out splatbooks like a bad case of diarrhea. It's highly questionable if that approach was good for the long-term health of the game. I doubt it was even good for TSR/WotC from a production costs/profit standpoint. So that may be another factor in the success of 5E.

Funny thing is that if I understand it correctly, the reason we had such a slow release was because there were such low expectations. They explicitly stated that there would never be a PHB/DMG/MM II because it confused people new to the hobby.

I agree that it was the right call no matter the reason.