D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[UngeheuerLich]

1) By definition, you can't be a new player and old player at the same time.

I agree.

2) Logic dictates that people with will have different preference than other people 20 years older than them.

This is not how logic works.

If 40% of 5e players are under 25 and 5e was not designed for the fantasy preferences of people under 25, the 5e was not designed for 40% of their audience.

Also not how logic works.

You can have more than one target group in mind. And catering to old and new players was a stated goal of the playtest.

Also: 40% is not a majority.

Then, the demographic of the game when it rose in popularity was probably different than now. And if the game failed back then, we might have never seen an increase of the younger players. So while we can be glad that their plan worked out well, it might be a good idea to adjust the game a bit in the 24 edition.

 

[Smackpixi]

The original question is:

"if it wasn't 5E (pick a different edition, it doesn't matter) but all the other circumstances were the same -- a new edition in 2014, references in the media, Critical Role and streaming in general, etc... -- would D&D still be having a major pop-cultural moment?"

My answer was Yes. The circumstances of 2014 are perfect for covering an edition's weaknesses and pulling an edition to the mainstream due to the changes in tech, media, and culture..

2014 was perfect for covering 50 years of D&D fandom. Something 2008, 2000, or the other editions release dates would have been terrible for and required a ton more work.

So basically you’re right. They did the right thing at the right time. Slowly the world outside insular RPG communities noticed and now we have what we have.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

In 2008 I think everyone would have been enraged by 5e in a "they ended 3.5 for this?" Kind of way. A lot of the initial affection for it was a 'return' to pre 4e mechanics after all, its very much linked into that cultural context of a romanticized return to form.

 

[Minigiant]

You can have more than one target group in mind. And catering to old and new players was a stated goal of the playtest.

My point is that the 2014 version of 5e didn't cater to the tastes of new players.
It taught them how to play but didn't successfully cater to the tastes of new players.

The reason why the new players, once they learned how to play, didn't shift to other games that catered to their tastes (like what happened in previous editions) was the climate of 2014-2022.

3rd parties converted 5e to the taste of new players. Celebs on YT, Twitter, and Streaming services kept new players engaged in 5e. Big real world event forced media to change. This gave WOTC time to adjust 5e with official content years later.

In the old days, they would have ranted about the issues of 5e online and switched to another game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My point is that the 2014 version of 5e didn't cater to the tastes of new players.
It taught them how to play but didn't successfully cater to the tastes of new players.

The reason why the new players, once they learned how to play, didn't shift to other games that catered to their tastes (like what happened in previous editions) was the climate of 2014-2022.

3rd parties converted 5e to the taste of new players. Celebs on YT, Twitter, and Streaming services kept new players engaged in 5e. Big real world event forced media to change. This gave WOTC time to adjust 5e with official content years later.

In the old days, they would have ranted about the issues of 5e online and switched to another game.

This is all an assumption of you.
I don't say it is necessarily false. But there is no way to prove it.
It could be vice versa.
Because new players liked the game and they are more attached to youtube and so on, they brought what they like into the new media.

Probably it was a bit of both or a self enhancing circular effect.

One without the other might have not been possible. But I have a hard time to dismiss one of those factors as easily exchangable.

And of course they adjusted the game, and they started with it well before those real world events happened. Just look at the timeline...

Your logic is flawed. You mix up inclusion and equivalency. You mix up cause and effect. And coincidence and correlation.
You don't have any reliable sample you base your assumptions on.

 

[Ogre Mage]

5E certainly benefited from a confluence of fortunate circumstances. The success of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones popularized fantasy for the masses. The rise of livestream D&D acted as a gateway for many people. And one of these, Critical Role, became such as massive hit it turned the cast into the sort of stars that Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman and R.A. Salvatore were back in the day. The rise of social media in general was a boon with D&D influencers providing the game with free advertising. Online applications allowed D&D to be played virtually in ways that were previously not possible. This would have boosted any edition.

But I don't think that explains why 5E has been able to keep selling well over such a long period of time. Some magic has allowed the 5e ecosystem to prosper into its old age. Other editions enjoyed boom times too but none were able to sustain it. So yes, something special IS going on with 5E. The system has found a Goldilocks balance between accessibility and complexity.

 

[Nightfly]

In the old days, they would have ranted about the issues of 5e online and switched to another game.

What other game? PF1 is an overcomplicated mess with three different Armor Classes. PF2 is a lot more elegant, but still intentionally a lot fussier than 5e, which is not the way to win over Joe Average. I dig 13th Age, but that game sadly never moved the needle at all. The OSR games are for a very particular type of player.

5e really hit the sweet spot of appealing to old-timers and new players both. It brought back everyone who detested 4e but kept most of the players who loved 4e, too. 5e did an amazing job finding that balance, and that's one of the reasons it's been such a massive success.

 

[Nightfly]

Other editions enjoyed boom times too but none were able to sustain it. So yes, something special IS going on with 5E. The system has found a Goldilocks balance between accessibility and complexity.

Exactly that. As I said earlier in this thread: 5e is just crunchy enough to be interesting, and then gets out of your way. I think that's what the majority of the player base wants.

 

[Parmandur]

Forgotten Realms. Again, Pokémon, Power Rangers, and Ninja Turtles. changed with the times.

The 5e PHB, MM, and DMG, and VGTM was written with 70s, 80s and 90s lore.
The whole point of MGTM is publish 5e PC and Monster content with 2020s styles and flavor.

The 5E books did change with the times. You may not remember the outcry about things like a Half-Orc Paladin or the iconic human being a black woman...but I do, and it was ugly. 5E made huge steps in 2014. It's an ongoing process. And the Forgotten Realms was way a head of it's time, bless Ed Greenwiod's Hippie heart.

 

[Parmandur]

In 2008 I think everyone would have been enraged by 5e in a "they ended 3.5 for this?" Kind of way. A lot of the initial affection for it was a 'return' to pre 4e mechanics after all, its very much linked into that cultural context of a romanticized return to form.

As someone who started with 3.x and bounced hard off of 4E after being initially excited, I disagree. 5E in 2008 would not have alienated people the same way, and it would still have been difficult to go back to 3.x after experiencing 5E mechanics.