D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Parmandur]

That's cool. Doesn't change the fact that a 20th level Champion is less competent than a 1st level 4e fighter with no powers.

That's not a fact, though. A 1st Level 4E character is more like a 3rd Level 5E one, in terms of in-game competence. And the 5E Fighter keeps up with other 5E characters very, very well in actual practice.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But I don't think that explains why 5E has been able to keep selling well over such a long period of time. Some magic has allowed the 5e ecosystem to prosper into its old age. Other editions enjoyed boom times too but none were able to sustain it. So yes, something special IS going on with 5E. The system has found a Goldilocks balance between accessibility and complexity.

It's just as speculative to assume that it must be an inherent quality of 5e's rules, as it is to assume that it must be purely due to favorable circumstances.

If people are going to demand data proving that new fans stick around in large part because 5e got a lucky break, I don't see why the converse—that it apparently has "98% perfect" design—bears absolutely no burden of proof whatsoever. Because that's a pretty friggin' wild claim.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's not a fact, though. A 1st Level 4E character is more like a 3rd Level 5E one, in terms of in-game competence. And the 5E Fighter keeps up with other 5E characters very, very well in actual practice.

Not in my experience and not by reasonable calculations based off average performance.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The game text doesn't present skill usage as a binary pass/fail... not even if you stop at PHB 174.

And yet... in practice that is seemingly how they are treated in all other situations in D&D when they come up. I mean, can anyone find me an official adventure where failing a DC-based skill check isn't treated as failure, but "progress with a setback"? I've certainly never seen that, but maybe it's out there.

Among those rules is DMG 242 which gives the method for non-binary outcomes. The range of results from ability checks is broader than that even, including (this is all from non-optional game text)

Can you give me a heading or something? I have the DMG on Beyond, rather than physical, and page references don't work, but I can't find anything like this. Not saying it isn't there, just that I can't find it.

EDIT - Do you mean the section "Resolution and consequences"?

That's an interesting one because it's somewhat at odds with the PHB, in that it doesn't even include the "progress with a setback" option (rather instead having "success at a cost", which is almost the inverse, or at least 90 degrees off), among other things.

It's also misleading, I feel, for you to lay things out so neatly and clearly, when the book completely and totally fails to do so. I had to look for a lot longer because I was expecting something clear, but in fact what you've got there is a much better and more useful clarification than that the DMG actually offers, which is vague text waffle.

I definitely hope 6E put this sort of thing in the PHB, it's genuinely non-optional as you say, and makes it a lot clearer.

Also, you say it's "non-optional text", but the text is literally phrased as if it's "at the DM's whim", so I mean, it's obviously optional just without an "optional rule" heading or sidebar.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I was gonna say hey us gen xers brought ya Revenge of the Nerds to soften up the anti-nerd culture, but yeah we completely forgot about the ladies.

Also Revenge of the Nerds came out when GenXers were young, but I’m pretty sure it was made by Boomers.

 

[Minigiant]

This is just a random assertion, and I do not see anybevidence that it is true. I'm well under 40 still today, and this does not correspond to my experience with people as young as 5 years old.

And refluffing and rolling with it allows for a huge amount to be accomplished thematically with minimal work.

Converting the monk class to be based on modern media and not a 1970s tv is no minimal work.
Adding tactical and morale elements to the fighter, rogue, and barbarian is no minimal work.
Discovering the equivalences of proficincies before TCOE was not minimal work
Rewritting monsters to be dynamic and not sacks of HP is not minimal work
Writting entire exploration and social subsystems is not minimal work.

 

[Parmandur]

Converting the monk class to be based on modern media and not a 1970s tv is no minimal work.
Adding tactical and morale elements to the fighter, rogue, and barbarian is no minimal work.
Discovering the equivalences of proficincies before TCOE was not minimal work
Rewritting monsters to be dynamic and not sacks of HP is not minimal work
Writting entire exploration and social subsystems is not minimal work.

None of yhat has to do with what "younger players" want, and in my experience nobody has looked at the Monk and felt the powers were dated: Orientalism, sure, since a lot of the people I know who play are Asian, but mechanically 5E did a good job bringing into line with modern wuxia and anime influences people are familiar with. And the main nfluence they brought was from a series of pulp novels "The Destroyer," not the TV stuff (though the tropes were much copied from those novels on TV).

I mean, you seem to see some sort of hard wall between generational tastes which is much more nuanced in my experience.

How old are you, if you do not mind me asking...?

 

[Parmandur]

Not in my experience and not by reasonable calculations based off average performance.

Guess that depends on your assumptions of what is "reasonable" somewhat.

 

[Minigiant]

None of yhat has to do with what "younger players" want, and in my experience nobody has looked at the Monk and felt the powers were dated: Orientalism, sure, since a lot of the people I know who play are Asian, but mechanically 5E did a good job bringing into line with modern wuxia and anime influences people are familiar with.

I mean, you seem to see some sort of hard wall between generational tastes which is much more nuanced in my experience.

How old are you, if you do not mind me asking...?

38

The monk at my Saturday table has a stand, can do Air Combos, and a separate table for rolling suplexes. He's 22.

 

[Parmandur]

38

The monk at my Saturday table has a stand, can do Air Combos, and a separate table for rolling suplexes. He's 22.

Cool. The Monk is definitely a point I would like to see some change on in the 2024 revision, particularly to change it to a Spell slot using Class and de-Ofientalize it. But Kung Fu Ninja's in 2014 were not playing to the over 40 crowd in particular.