Paizo Jessica Price (ex Paizo employee) spills the beans
- Thread starter Ancalagon
- Start date
- Status
You only got half of it, or maybe all of it but it's worth clarifying anyway: we can't neither give nor deny any credence to complaints. Refusing to give credence is the exact same error as giving credence: since we don't have the ability to review the complete evidence, we can't determine whether it's true or not. It's undetermined and there is no "guilty party": neither the employee (who could be right or guilty of libel) nor the company (who could be right or guilty of endangering the life of their employees) is guilty and therefore the only thing to do is encourage the plaintiff to contact the regulatory bodies to get vindicated. It can't always be easily done (from lack of fund, insufficent access to these institutions or state of mind (in the case of victims of abuse who simply can't realize their situation). In this case, I hope labor unions would help overcome any difficulty in getting access to a court. Going public is certainly worthwhile when denouncing something that is legal but one wants to change (ie, a political problem) but it doesn't seem to be the case here: the situations described seem clearly already illegal (I am pretty sure it's illegal nearly everywhere to discriminated based on gender or to refuse to clean an office to the point it's becoming a health hazard). The judicial branch is here to help (or at least it should be) and it's a sad situation when Twitter is preferred to the relevant authorities.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
I thought they might give a more competent corporate response, but I guess the bar needs to be lowered again.
darjr
I crit!
From the Paizo thread Erik Monas respond on Reddit to some of the things said.
on_the_occult_saint_germain/
It's been quite a week. For Paizo's official statement, please go here. This isn't that.
A recent Twitter thread critical of Paizo’s management called out three elements related to my interest in historical occultism as problematic from a company culture perspective, and I’d like to take a moment to respond to them, not as a company representative, but as me, Erik.
Specifically, these criticisms involve 1) A picture of the occult figure Saint Germain I once had on the wall in my office that offended some then-co-workers; 2) A tiny picture of a swastika I once accidentally posted to my personal Facebook amid a huge dump of occult images; and 3) Some creatures I wrote for a Pathfinder Bestiary that were inspired by Theosophy and Eastern mysticism.
Because my personal values do not align with racism AT ALL, and the accusations seem to suggest that I hold racist beliefs, I want to respond to these accusations personally.
Thanks for your time. –Erik
on_the_occult_saint_germain/
It's been quite a week. For Paizo's official statement, please go here. This isn't that.
A recent Twitter thread critical of Paizo’s management called out three elements related to my interest in historical occultism as problematic from a company culture perspective, and I’d like to take a moment to respond to them, not as a company representative, but as me, Erik.
Specifically, these criticisms involve 1) A picture of the occult figure Saint Germain I once had on the wall in my office that offended some then-co-workers; 2) A tiny picture of a swastika I once accidentally posted to my personal Facebook amid a huge dump of occult images; and 3) Some creatures I wrote for a Pathfinder Bestiary that were inspired by Theosophy and Eastern mysticism.
Because my personal values do not align with racism AT ALL, and the accusations seem to suggest that I hold racist beliefs, I want to respond to these accusations personally.
- I have long been intrigued by the mythology of the allegedly immortal Comte de Saint Germain, a jewel thief, composer, spy, and all-around 18th Century weirdo. My research on this figure revealed Saint Germain’s use by a 1930s-era cult known as the I AM Activity, which promoted Saint Germain to the rank of Ascended Master. I found what I thought was a fun portrait of the guy from that cult and put him on my wall. I do not recall ever being told by any of my co-workers that they found the image problematic. Regardless, this illustration has not been on display for several years. I regret any offense that the image may have caused anyone, and I categorically apologize that I did not anticipate that it might make some people uncomfortable.
- A few years back I acquired an occult book from the turn of the century that included page after page filled with small occult symbols. I posted images of several pages from the book to my personal Facebook. Shortly thereafter, a friend pointed out that one of the symbols was a swastika (unfortunately very common in occult books of the age, as it had not yet achieved its 20th century infamy), something I had initially overlooked. I removed the image immediately upon it being noticed. Again, I regret that I posted it at all, but this was an honest mistake that was probably online for less than an hour total.
- I wrote some monsters in a Pathfinder Bestiary that were inspired by Theosophy, which some people found objectionable. As recounted in the accusation, Paizo’s editors clipped material they thought might be problematic, which is a testament to the skill and intelligence of Paizo’s editors, as protecting our manuscripts from unconscious bias is part of their jobs, and something they do very well.
Thanks for your time. –Erik
That post at-least comes off as more genuine and it tackles the accusations head on. It is a world ahead. I don't trust it entirely as I am always skeptical but it at-least acknowledges harm.
The US judicial system has failed victims of discrimination, workers, people of color, and sexual assault survivors again and again and again. Though, one could argue that what might be regarded as a bug (the inability of the courts to provide justice) is actually a feature and says a lot about the power dynamics of US society and the way that sexism, racism, and homophobia is not just a matter of individual instances (say, at Paizo), but institutional and systemic.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
It's at least a human response, and not a cardboard cutout. Honestly, I do not think this makes Mona look any better, since that stuff is shady AF and he doesn't address any of the other major issues at all.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Smells fishy, painting himself as a heroic martyr.
TheAlkaizer
Game Designer
Jeff's statement was very weak. Erik's one, at least for me, makes sense. It's very obvious no matter the truth that he showed a poor judgment in putting such symbols on display, but I honestly have weirder stuff on my shelves, I just wouldn't put it on display at the office or slip it into a product.
Last edited:
Somewhat off topic, but the historical position of theosophy is not as straightforward as Price makes it out to be. Theosophists included a lot of quirky, artistic, cosmopolitan leftists (even if they essentialized certain aspects of non-western culture). Mohandas Gandhi, for example, was well acquainted with theosophist circles in the time he spent there as a youth (not that he was always non-racist). In sum, it's complicated. I would also say phrenology, eugenics, scientific racism and the like were mainstream, common sense ideas in the late nineteenth century and part and parcel of the social fabric of European colonial powers. This is also the era where pulp fantasy and adventure come into their own as genres (driven also by nostalgia for a romanticized medieval past). That is, if you are playing a fantasy roleplaying game, the genre expectations of your game have, to some degree, an origin in all the mess of ideas above, including but not limited to theosophy.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
They were somewhat less mainstream when Jessica Price reported to Mona, however, and were avoided by TSR in their most pulpy days.
I am not a "lefty" myself by just about any reasonable metric, so that some folks involved with a weird racist movement had non-reactionary ideas about, say, worker's rights doesn't absolve them from the whole scene, which was bad news.
Gradine
Final Form (she/they)
Mona's response is pretty good. A little too much in the way of excuses and shunting of responsibility, but it comes across as genuinely contrite, at least. No personal acknowledgement of tone deafness, but it's certainly a start. There are a lot of other, more damning accusations not addressed there, but corporate PR is gonna corporate PR.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
It's pretty narrowly focused on a sideshow element of the accusations, and ignores some fundamental questions raised. It certainly is well written and lays out his perspective on a "harmless hobby" that was not viewed as harmless by those under his power.
Gradine
Final Form (she/they)
Personally, I don't really see how Paizo pulls themselves out of this without new management. They can't just shove one dude into a locked room in Sweden for a year until everything blows over, like WotC did with the whole Mearls/Zak incident.
Speaking of, holy moly, if you want to talk about sexist double standards; if you think Price was justifiably fired for being a little mean to a guy on Twitter once, wait till you get a load of how Zak S treated other people online!
Speaking of, holy moly, if you want to talk about sexist double standards; if you think Price was justifiably fired for being a little mean to a guy on Twitter once, wait till you get a load of how Zak S treated other people online!
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Unlike WotC, Paizo has no investors to answer to, and the owners are buds with management. Historically, this means that toxicity is a regenerative cycle that doesn't really ever get fixed.
No, of course, it's terrible!! As is scientific racism! I'm not excusing its inclusion in a game. What I'm saying is that fantasy rpgs already include a lot of elements derived from late nineteenth century colonial ideology, so if you are playing dnd or pathfinder, those games and the fantasy genre are already enmeshed in a lot of terrible, essentializing ideas. (Also, fwiw, phrenology is not a specifically theosophist idea, and had wider purchase in Victorian scientific communities)
Gradine
Final Form (she/they)
Oh it's definitely possible that nothing actually happens internally, but their reputation will be shot when that happens
- Status
