D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[Hussar]

A counter example (purely so I can understand where you are coming from): take the scrapbooking hobby. Currently I see the estimated male population to be 20%-30%. If 10 years from now someone comes along and is cool/creative/influential enough to get that percentage up, would you feel it appropriate to chastise the scrapbookers of the 2020s for not being inclusive enough?

Oh, come on. Is this actually meant to be a serious question?

Somehow I doubt that scrapbookers are deliberately scrapbooking stories and pictures that denigrate and objectify men. Maybe they are. That's entirely possible. But, really, I highly doubt it.

It's not that anyone is getting "bent out of shape" about the fact that the hobby was dominated by men in the early days. That's not really an issue. I mean, there are lots of hobbies where one gender or another dominates. That's not an issue. The issue is that the male dominated hobby of gaming was made very, VERY deliberately unwelcoming to women.

I mean, do you really think that if you went to a scrapbooking meeting, you'd have several women commenting on your appearance, telling you to smile more, telling you that you aren't really able to do the hobby because you're a man?

FFS, I am so freaking exhausted with having to explain this exact point over and over and over again.

Edit to add.

Ok you found a nearly twenty year old blog post from one person. A person, I might add, who is not a major name, but just some random person. Now, if you managed to find dozens more blogs like that, multiple anecdotal stories of men being harassed, numerous historical papers citing events that demonstrate that the harassment was endemic and occurred commonly, THEN you’d be able to make the comparison.

But a single blog post?

 

[Jahydin]

Oh, come on. Is this actually meant to be a serious question?

Rude, haha...

Somehow I doubt that scrapbookers are deliberately scrapbooking stories and pictures that denigrate and objectify men. Maybe they are. That's entirely possible. But, really, I highly doubt it.

That's true. I wasn't going for a "one to one" comparison, but rather it makes sense to me that a bunch of guys making games for other guys would draw attractive women since that's what guys naturally like.

A better example: I wouldn't pick up a romance novel and think everyone that reads these things must be sexist since it's obviously objectifying males on the cover. There's an understanding that this was written by females for other females and it's only natural to want to appeal to them.

Maybe I'm wrong though and maybe that's an issue too? What do you think?

It's not that anyone is getting "bent out of shape" about the fact that the hobby was dominated by men in the early days. That's not really an issue. I mean, there are lots of hobbies where one gender or another dominates. That's not an issue. The issue is that the male dominated hobby of gaming was made very, VERY deliberately unwelcoming to women.

What makes you think it was deliberately done? That seems like the most uncharitable take possible?

I mean, do you really think that if you went to a scrapbooking meeting, you'd have several women commenting on your appearance, telling you to smile more, telling you that you aren't really able to do the hobby because you're a man?

No... just like I don't think most D&D groups would do that either? Did you?

FFS, I am so freaking exhausted with having to explain this exact point over and over and over again.

You didn't need to?

 

[AnotherGuy]

What makes you think it was deliberately done? That seems like the most uncharitable take possible?

I think it is fair to say that the art was not a deliberate attempt to alienate women.
I would even say many of the mechanics were not a deliberate attempt to make women unwelcome. That it had that effect does not automatically make it deliberate.

However, what would have been deliberate is persons within the hobby who wanted to keep their tables and perhaps even the broader hobby strictly male.
I think many groups experienced this unease back then when you had the first female join the group - this exact issue was highlighted on Stranger Things, except in that scenario its kids which is understandable, less so when it is adults or the architects behind the game.

 

[Hussar]

edit - removed because I'm not adding to the conversation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Regarding male-gaze and such.

A lot of artists like to draw things that are "hot" to them, and even when drawing things that are no meant to be explicitly "hot," their personal preferences will influence how they depict things. Like looking at my own Insta gallery, it is trivial to observe that most of the art I make features rather attractive women. Whilst in theory, there could be artists that are not horny perverts, finding such is probably very difficult. The actual answer is to have diverse set of artists. Then you will have diverse set of preferences and diverse PoVs, and that's the way to produce diverse art. And that of course goes for much, much more than just what one finds "hot."

 

[TiQuinn]

A better example: I wouldn't pick up a romance novel and think everyone that reads these things must be sexist since it's obviously objectifying males on the cover. There's an understanding that this was written by females for other females and it's only natural to want to appeal to them.

What I think you are missing and that your examples miss is that there were women who were actively interested in the game, and were being actively discouraged from participating while being belittled by those guys who just wanna play games.

Who’s blocking anyone from picking up a romance novel and reading it? Women’s book clubs? Are there women’s romance fanzines out there writing about men’s average intelligence? I highly doubt it.

D&D is a social game, and in those social aspects, women were being turned away by its creators who didn’t realize (or didn’t care) that they were also setting an example for others.

 

[Mannahnin]

RPG's, D&D specifically, grew out from miniature war gaming. Niche hobby dominated by men in 60's and 70s. They targeted same majority demographic that played miniature war games. Yes, they made educated guess at what would their prime consumer base would be and went all in. And, as i said, ttrpgs were very niche hobby popular mostly in very niche subculture.

But women got involved quickly, and at much higher rates than traditional wargames. Alarums & Excursions was started in 1975. By Lee Gold, who was one of the central people involved (along with a few other women, as well as men) in propagating the enthusiasm for D&D among sci-fi fans in California, one of a handful of early hotbeds of D&D enthusiasm. Alongside places like Lake Geneva & the Twin Cities, and Boston around MIT and other universities there.

Did you read the Peterson piece about the first female gamers?

Personally, where I struggle is getting bent out of shape over a group of guys making games for other guys writing things that just might offend a non-male someone.

I don't think anyone is. People are pointing out that...

1. Women were much more interested in RPGs than traditional wargames, right from the start.
2. As early as '74 and '75, women were objecting to being sidelined or dismissed and asking for tweaks to make them more welcome and represented in the game.
3. Gary responded to these overtures with outright contempt. And TSR and the editors of Dragon were generally dismissive (though Tim Kask was apologetic after the Lakofka article) of the concerns and appeals by women gamers, at least until the 80s. This did get better over time, but the overall atmosphere was very "boys' club" well after TSR was aware that women were interested in the game. Gary estimated in '79 that the share of women gamers was at least 10%. And that was despite women being repeatedly snubbed.

For me, that would be a silly thing to do because the predominance of female scrapbookers probably came about by natural means and had nothing to do with misandry. And although assuming a female audience when writing is sexist, it's probably not what caused guys to not participate. Further, if I were in the hobby, I would just be happy more guys joined and would be more focused on what changed to cause the influx.

Has there been a similar phenomenon of male scrapbookers writing in to major scrapbooking venues, magazines or blogs or forums, and being treated with condescension or even outright contempt?

 

[Aldarc]

edit - removed because I'm not adding to the conversation.

May I offer a suggestion for another edit to your post?

"Subtracted because I'm not adding to the conversation."

 

[Umbran]

Maybe I'm wrong though and maybe that's an issue too? What do you think?

What makes you think it was deliberately done? That seems like the most uncharitable take possible?

No... just like I don't think most D&D groups would do that either? Did you?

You didn't need to?

Mod Note:
I think this post firmly fits the "sealion" pattern. Please find another discussion to take part in.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

I wonder why threads on this subject keep popping up, with the same actors presenting the same arguments and disagree about the same stuff, where no-one will be converted to a different opinion or position?

It's almost as if 5e is so perfected that there's no need to debate about rules or gameplay elements any more.