Limits on heavy thrown weapons?

[Smeelbo]

Here is my understanding on heavy thrown weapons so far:

For basic ranged attacks, they use STR instead of DEX, although for powers, they use the stat specified, usually DEX.

To replinish one heavy thrown weapon generally takes a minor action (Draw or sheathe a weapon, PHB89).

The feat Quick Draw, PHB200, lets you "draw a weapon...as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon..."

A magic thrown weapon "automatically returns to its wielder's hand after a ranged attack...catching a returning thrown weapon is a free action." PHB232.

Using a "load" weapons with "a power [that] allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power," and "some powers let you hurl several [light thrown weapons] at once" PHB 217, there is no similar provision for heavy thrown weapons. You must draw every weapon you throw.

Thus a heavy thrown weapon user is at some disadvantage.

Let me see if I understand correctly. Consider Axam the 1st Level Dwarf Ranger, who wants to throw a lot of hand axes. He just started, and so has no magic hand axe yet.

Without the Quick Draw feat, he is limited to throwing two hand axes with one action, and only if he begins the action with a hand axe in each hand.

With Quick Draw, he could throw one hand axe if he began the action with an empty hand, two hand axes if he began the action holding one hand axe, or three if he began with a hand axe in each hand.

Axam could not circumvent this limitation by holding multiple hand axes in his off hand, and throwing them with his main hand.

When he acquires a magic hand axe, then life is much simpler. He can make as many attacks with his magic hand axe as the power allows. Without Quick Draw, he has to start the action with his magic hand axe in his hand, but with Quick Draw, he can begin with an empty hand.

As written, magic thrown weapons only return when used in ranged attacks, but according to customer support, they also return after each attack in a close or area attack power.

In contrast, as long as your load weapon begins loaded, the only limit on the number of attacks is the available ammunition, whether for ranged, close, or area attacks, and similarly for light thrown weapons, magic or otherwise.

So for example, with Spray of Arrows, Ranger Daily Attack 9, with Quick Draw, Axam would be limited to three targets without a magic hand axe, while a ranger using a light thrown or load weapon requires only sufficient ammunition to hit all the available targets, and does not require either Quick Draw or a magic weapon.

Is this a correct understanding of the current rules regarding heavy thrown weapons?

Also: I cannot find a rule about using powers with multiple attacks with light thrown weapons comparable to the explicit rules given for load weapons. PHB 217 seems a bit vague on light thrown compared to load weapons. Where is that found?

Thank you,
Smeelbo

 

[BobTheNob]

All very correct. Thrown weapons do present difficulties, as they have in the past editions as well.

Player : "Woohoo. I have a +5 spear of ultimate death. I throw it"
DM : "You miss, and now your weapon is on the other side of the battlefield"
Player : "Now all I have is unenchanted spears. Damn, wish I specced to use a bow..."

This has always been an issue. (On top of the whole having to ready problem you have pointed out)

Early on we implemented a house rule that a thrown weapon has 5 shots (i.e. you can attack at range 5 times before it leaves your quiver). This is stupidly unrealistic (i.e. somehow thrown weapon just keep magically reapearing) and unjustifiable is "realistic" terms. However, the decision was based on past experiences and we chose to go down this path for a very distinct reason...

Fun. This is a game. The point of any game ever created by mankind is to have fun, otherwise why play? Its not fun when throwing weapons get rationlised down to a pain in the arse. So, we kicked "realism" out and invited "fun" in, and its working very nicely.

 

[Baumi]

Just give a player who specializes in throwing weapons a magical weapon (+1 is only level 1) as soon as possible and the "problems" go away.

Besides, page 217 doesn't say that ONLY light thrown weapons can be used with close attacks, in fact I'm sure that it just references to the rogue who can use his ranged powers only with light thrown weapons.

Bob, do you know that magical thrown weapons return automatically? The designers seem to have had the same problems as you described and build in this reasonable fix. 8D

 

[deleteme123456]

I've also had a request from one of my low-level players for a +0 magic dagger. No extra cost, no +1 to attack or damage, but it returns to hand. At the time I ruled against it but in hindsight I probably would just allow it because bookkeeping is a pain.

 

[Bagpuss]

With Quick Draw, he could throw one hand axe if he began the action with an empty hand, two hand axes if he began the action holding one hand axe, or three if he began with a hand axe in each hand.

Reading Quick Draw I would say there is no limit on the number of times that feat can be used with one attack power. So if you had four creatures in your close burst, and needed four axes to throw quick draw would let you draw and throw four axes.

You can draw a weapon (or an object, such as a potion, stored in a belt pouch, a bandolier, or a similar container) as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon or use the object.

The "a" is not meant to singular use. My action allows me to attack four times, I can draw a weapon four times.

 

[Smeelbo]

Reading Quick Draw I would say there is no limit on the number of times that feat can be used with one attack power. So if you had four creatures in your close burst, and needed four axes to throw quick draw would let you draw and throw four axes.

That is my preferred interpretation, but I am not sure it holds up.

You can draw a weapon...as part of the same action used to attack with the weapon.

If it instead read "as part of the attack," I would feel more confident.

As it is, I am keeping careful track of my actions and what is in my hands at all times. While this has been very useful in teaching me to pay attention to the turn sequence in play, it will get boring fast. I would prefer that Quick Draw let me draw as many weapons as I need for the attack.

Lastly, I still have not found the "load" language for light thrown weapons. If it's not there, then light weapons suffer the same limitations.

Smeelbo

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One of the other assumptions that seems to have been made in the system is that when you're using a multi-target ranged power then the actions to draw/reload your weapon are included within the power. So, if you're a Rogue using mundane Daggers for a multi-target power, then the cost of drawing and throwing each dagger is already worked into the power. If you're a Ranger with a bow, same thing. Lastly, if you're a Dwarf and you're throwing Axes, the same would apply.

The only limitation on this would be ammunition. You have to carry enough Daggers, Arrows or Axes to make the attacks...unless you have a magic weapon. Then, you only need one Dagger and one Axe. The Bow user, unfortunately, still has to carry enough arrows to hit all the targets. Arrows are trivially cheap though, so it's not a big deal.

 

[Smeelbo]

One of the other assumptions that seems to have been made in the system is that when you're using a multi-target ranged power then the actions to draw/reload your weapon are included within the power (emphasis added).

Except that, so far as I can tell, the only place it is explicitly stated is on PHB 217, and only for "load" weapons, like bows, crossbows, and slings. I have seen numerous posts attributing this same property for light thrown weapons as well, but looking for it, I cannot find it.

I do not have a stable campaign to play in, so I'll probably play in some convention games, so I want the standard ruling, with citations from the PHB or the Errata.

Smeelbo

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Except that, so far as I can tell, the only place it is explicitly stated is on PHB 217, and only for "load" weapons, like bows, crossbows, and slings. I have seen numerous posts attributing this same property for light thrown weapons as well, but looking for it, I cannot find it.

I do not have a stable campaign to play in, so I'll probably play in some convention games, so I want the standard ruling, with citations from the PHB or the Errata.

Smeelbo

The only thing you can taken as (probably) granted is that you can use 1 magic thrown weapon for all attacks of a close or area attack.
This is backed up by CS for what it is worth but I have heard no one arguing against it because otherwise close and area attacks get more and more useless the higher your level gets.

 

[Dan'L]

That is my preferred interpretation, but I am not sure it holds up.If it instead read "as part of the attack," I would feel more confident.

An attack is just a specific case of an action. You can't make an attack that isn't an action; even free action attacks would technically be an action. Therefore, don't worry: Quick Draw will cover you. And it would cover you, too, if you wanted to whip out your weapon fast as part of an Intimidate action.

Lastly, I still have not found the "load" language for light thrown weapons. If it's not there, then light weapons suffer the same limitations.

Well, there isn't anything to "load," since there's no ammo involved, but I get your meaning as "draw." I think that this is what the Quick Draw feat is there to cover. If you're playing an axe-hurling Ranger, just grab this feat and call it covered. Otherwise, it'll come down to how much of a stickler your DM is about draw actions for combat flavor.

-Dan'L