That is a really good catch and I completely didn't realize that! So it is much harder to use than I originally thought! Dragon Storm is basically a similar effect to consecrated ground and confirms for me that if the Cleric isn't at least 1 square away (or inside) the burst the effect ends. This makes it super vulnerable and *will* force the PCs to bunch up to use it.
List of Broken Powers
- Thread starter KarinsDad
- Start date
That is a really good catch and I completely didn't realize that! So it is much harder to use than I originally thought! Dragon Storm is basically a similar effect to consecrated ground and confirms for me that if the Cleric isn't at least 1 square away (or inside) the burst the effect ends. This makes it super vulnerable and *will* force the PCs to bunch up to use it.
All it does is force the Cleric to be in close.
But Clerics are already in close since the vast majority of their powers are either Ranged 5 or Melee Weapon.
If you have a PC that is not bloodied, the Cleric won't even bother to move the Consecrated Ground near that PC unless there is another reason to do so. The PCs do not need to bunch up in it since its ability to heal is not that strong. If they are in it, fine. If not, that's probably ok as well. It's more important for the Cleric to get Consecrated Ground on top of a seriously damaged PC (because s/he might be dying soon) or one that is dying. And, it's slightly important to get it around as many NPCs as possible. It doesn't really have to be around a bunch of PCs for it to do its job, just a few select PCs.
Offensively, Consecrated Ground is about as strong as Rain of Steel.
But it also automatically brings a dying PC conscious and it can sometimes be used at the end of the encounter to make all bloodied PCs non-bloodied (easily the equivalent of 3 to 6 healing surges of surgeless healing for those nasty encounters where it will be brought out). That's a lot more utility than the same level Rain of Steel.
So you don't have to be in the zone, just close to it... meh. I'd be inclined to (house)rule that the range on a Close power is zero, and thus the requirement to be "in range" of at least one square means you have to be within the zone. That makes more sense conceptually and is easier to understand and apply. It also means Close Bursts are consistent with Area Bursts, since I'm pretty sure the intent is not to treat "area burst 1 within 10" as having a range of 1.
IMO, if one is going to write rules that treat "range" as a numeric quantity, one should not then try to jam range and AoE into the same line in the statblock. Either make a separate line for "area" or put it into the "target" line. (Also, it's stupid to have a power type called "ranged" when other powers have ranges.)
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Psikus
Explorer
I brought up bullrush because it is the one method that all characters have to move enemies around - it's just that it's usually too weak to be considered an acceptable solution. This follows a similar line of reasoning to your mention of grabbing with minions... and suffers from similar problems: outside of dedicated grabbing powers, a grab tends to be a poor use of a standard action.
By the way, I think you greatly overvalue the strategy of grabbing with minions. Though not insignificant, a grab is quite weaker than an immobilization, since the character has a chance to make a check to shift away. Not only that, but killing the minion (which usually takes little more than staring at it) will automatically end the grab. Having standard monsters do the grab would be far more reliable, though also more costly.
I'm afraid I must disagree about its fragility. I just don't see that many 4+ forced movement in monsters (as anything less is usually pointless since the zone can easily be moved 3 squares), and even then you're not guaranteed to kill the power, as the cleric will often be able to double move the zone, or provoke an opportunity attack, or shift+charge, or be moved back by an ally. This means the zone can be disrupted for a turn or two, but it won't easily end. Stuns and dominations are a much more real threat, as with most 'sustain minor' dailies, though feats like Superior Will provide reasonable protection against that.
Admittedly, I wasn't aware about the range rules for maintaining Consecrated Ground and powers like it, before this thread... and this is a point that has forced me to reevaluate these powers. It's just that I don't see it as such a big deal - just an inconvenience.
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Spectral Assailants (Assassin 13th level encounter power) is broken. Only DM fiat (i.e. putting a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a round) will stop this power from insta-killing monsters when coupled with damage areas. On WotCs Character Optimization forum there's a thread called the Handbook of Broken (it's also on the wiki there). I suggest taking a peek there for some more brokeness.
I'm not clear how you can insta-kill a monster with this. Per the forced movement rules, you have the option to make a saving throw each time someone tries to force-move you into a hazardous square. If you make the save, you are prone but do not enter the hazard. So unless the monster rolls really badly, you're not going to be able to nickel and dime it to death by bouncing it back and forth between hazard squares.
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Aulirophile
First Post
You only get a saving throw vs Hindering Terrain. Player created zones are not hindering terrain (unless they say they are, of course). Auto-damage zone does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does etc.
The, correct, way of fixing this is to implement a rule that each creature can only take damage once per zone per turn (and rewrite the handful of powers it'd effect). This fixes most instances of iterative damage that suffer from this issue, barring I believe four which lack the zone keyword and would need to also be rewritten slightly (it was also the correct solution to the free action problem. One free action attack per source per turn, but alas).
39. Are zones that deal damage (like the Wizard power Stinking Cloud) considered ‘hindering terrain’? Can I make a save to fall prone and avoid being forced into one?
No, zones are not considered hindering terrain. Hindering terrain refers to more permanent features like pits, cliffs or pools of lava.
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Huh, I didn't know that. Guess I've been using a house rule... though I'm not real clear on why there should be a distinction between a pool of lava that was already there and one that was created by a spell. In that case, yes, Spectral Assailants is broken as written, and applying a once-per-turn limit to either the "move on damage" effect or the "damage from a zone" effect is the obvious fix.
I'm tempted to junk the whole distinction and say anybody subjected to forced movement can take an immediate interrupt to end that movement, at the cost of falling prone if you're not already (and using up your immediate action for the round, of course).
Mapache
Explorer
Most damaging zones only do damage when you enter them, not when you keep moving through them, so you'd need some way to extend it to a slide 2 to go in-and-out or two adjacent damage zones to ping-pong between, but it's still abusable. I agree that making damaging zones once per turn is a clean, simple fix to lots of egregious abuses, and makes sense to boot. (Why is sliding someone along a wall of fire currently less dangerous than sliding them in and out repeatedly?)
TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
CaGI Fighter
