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Mad at Paizo?

Retreater

Adventurer
I haven't been able to get into Critical Role. Then I tried Matt Colville's game. I helped back the stream on Kickstarter (mostly because I wanted Strongholds and Followers). I thought for sure I'd like his game because I like his DM advice on YouTube, but it was just wasn't my style of game. I watched around 10 episodes and then said I was done.
I don't think watching D&D streams is for me. I don't think of D&D as a spectator experience.
 

Fanaelialae

Adventurer
Maybe you could "enlight" me; why people are so "defending" (not sure it's the good word) about this?
"Defensive" is the word you're looking for. Personally, I wasn't offended, but I can kind of see why others were. There was a bit of hyperbole flying around, with some badwrongfun seemingly being implied.

I haven't been able to get into Critical Role. Then I tried Matt Colville's game. I helped back the stream on Kickstarter (mostly because I wanted Strongholds and Followers). I thought for sure I'd like his game because I like his DM advice on YouTube, but it was just wasn't my style of game. I watched around 10 episodes and then said I was done.
I don't think watching D&D streams is for me. I don't think of D&D as a spectator experience.
I can't watch game streams either, but I enjoy listening to them while doing other things (driving, working, etc). It really seems to help keep the creative part of my brain mollified and subdued, which frees the more analytical part of my mind to get stuff done.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I haven't been able to get into Critical Role. Then I tried Matt Colville's game. I helped back the stream on Kickstarter (mostly because I wanted Strongholds and Followers). I thought for sure I'd like his game because I like his DM advice on YouTube, but it was just wasn't my style of game. I watched around 10 episodes and then said I was done.
I don't think watching D&D streams is for me. I don't think of D&D as a spectator experience.
Yeah, it won't be for everyone. I applaud your open and fair mind.

I wouldn't expect Colville to be super different from Mercer, considering that they run in the same crew and are close friends.
 
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Xenonnonex

Explorer
I haven't been able to get into Critical Role. Then I tried Matt Colville's game. I helped back the stream on Kickstarter (mostly because I wanted Strongholds and Followers). I thought for sure I'd like his game because I like his DM advice on YouTube, but it was just wasn't my style of game. I watched around 10 episodes and then said I was done.
I don't think watching D&D streams is for me. I don't think of D&D as a spectator experience.
I tried to watch Matt Colville's game. He sometimes gives great advice through his videos. I tried to like Matt Colville's game.
I turned it off. He is just a boring DM. Sometimes even a bad DM.

I could watch Matt Mercer, Jeremy Crawford or Chris Perkins or any other amateur DM but not Matt Colville. And that saddens me.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I tried to watch Matt Colville's game. He sometimes gives great advice through his videos. I tried to like Matt Colville's game.
I turned it off. He is just a boring DM. Sometimes even a bad DM.

I could watch Matt Mercer, Jeremy Crawford or Chris Perkins or any other amateur DM but not Matt Colville. And that saddens me.
I haven't had the impression that he is a bad DM by any means, but he isn't as comfortable in the environment as the theatre kids. Go figure.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Yeah, it won't be for everyone. I applaud your open and fair mind.

I wouldn't expect Colville to be super different from Mercer, considering that they run in the same crew and are close friends.
They are both also friends with Adam Koebel. Stylistically I find all 3 pretty different in how they run games.
 

Xenonnonex

Explorer
I haven't had the impression that he is a bad DM by any means, but he isn't as comfortable in the environment as the theatre kids. Go figure.
I have tried watching some of his other D&D streams and they have been excruciatingly boring.
Though it is not a bad thing he is clearly not familiar at all with the 5e rule set.

Frankly I think he should run games in 4e. He is clearly knowledgeable and passionate about 4e. He should not feel he has to run 5e because it is popular.
 

Arilyn

Explorer
I have tried watching some of his other D&D streams and they have been excruciatingly boring.
Though it is not a bad thing he is clearly not familiar at all with the 5e rule set.

Frankly I think he should run games in 4e. He is clearly knowledgeable and passionate about 4e. He should not feel he has to run 5e because it is popular.
I don't watch streaming so haven't seen Matt Colville as GM, but Strongholds and Followers is a very good book, so he can't be ignorant of 5e rules. Isn't 5e supposed to be all about making the game your own anyway? Rulings, not Rules! At least that's what I keep hearing...
 

Xenonnonex

Explorer
I don't watch streaming so haven't seen Matt Colville as GM, but Strongholds and Followers is a very good book, so he can't be ignorant of 5e rules. Isn't 5e supposed to be all about making the game your own anyway? Rulings, not Rules! At least that's what I keep hearing...
I have heard it is rather unbalanced and not equal effort is given to every class. That it makes references to supplements not yet available. That the mechanics rely on things that are not there. That it seems unfinished.

Rulings not rules is the 5e mantra yes. But you have to understand some of 5e's rules at least.
 

Arilyn

Explorer
I have heard it is rather unbalanced and not equal effort is given to every class. That it makes references to supplements not yet available. That the mechanics rely on things that are not there. That it seems unfinished.

Rulings not rules is the 5e mantra yes. But you have to understand some of 5e's rules at least.
Yes, fair enough. Is his GMing that bad, though? Maybe I should take a look.
 

Fanaelialae

Adventurer
Yes, fair enough. Is his GMing that bad, though? Maybe I should take a look.
Personally, I don't think his DMing is bad. He's not as entertaining as Mercer, but that can be said of most other DMs IMO. I've only watched a few episodes of his stream, but I'd say he's a pretty normal DM. He does things where I think he's making a mistake, and I would do it very differently, but I've thought the same of Mercer and Koebel, and I've no doubt that if any of them sat in on one of my games they'd think the same thing.
 

MichaelSomething

Adventurer
I’m not saying it’s a major issue but it is disconcerting. I will also say that in a small way watching CR does put me off D&D as a game too. Not enough to stop playing but enough to demotivate me. It clearly isn’t a unique feeling.
How could CR turn you, or anyone else, to not like D&D all together? I would Like some context to those feelings.
 

Haffrung

Explorer
How could CR turn you, or anyone else, to not like D&D all together? I would Like some context to those feelings.
Imagine a streaming show where the players gather around elaborately crafted Dwarven Forge dungeon setups, with the game focused almost exclusively on tactical maneuver and combat in the dungeon. The DM is adversarial and mocks the players relentlessly, while the players fist-pump, high-five, and do shots of jaegermeister whenever they win a combat. Each episode wraps with a graphic showing the total kills and GP gained by the players. And this stream is so popular that it defines D&D in the popular consciousness.

Now, if this stream's approach to D&D wasn't your cup of tea, if you found it off-putting, this could - in a small way - make D&D feel to you like something that wasn't your jam.
 
Imagine a streaming show where the players gather around elaborately crafted Dwarven Forge dungeon setups, with the game focused almost exclusively on tactical maneuver and combat in the dungeon. The DM is adversarial and mocks the players relentlessly, while the players fist-pump, high-five, and do shots of jaegermeister whenever they win a combat. Each episode wraps with a graphic showing the total kills and GP gained by the players. And this stream is so popular that it defines D&D in the popular consciousness.

Now, if this stream's approach to D&D wasn't your cup of tea, if you found it off-putting, this could - in a small way - make D&D feel to you like something that wasn't your jam.
Are you saying that you think the above description is an example of what happens in Critical Role? I watch CR and I don't believe - apart from using Dwarven Forge terrain - that this is representative of CR at all.

For that matter I find the whole concept of being demotivated to play D&D because of watching a livestream game to be ludicrous. If you were interested enough in playing/running D&D in the first place and you don't enjoy the livestream then stop watching the livestream; put it aside and focus on what you want to do. Exercise some willpower and don't let some form of social media portraying an atypical example of the game put you off. Sweet Lord. Is this a millennial thing because I've noticed this kind of social media influence affecting player agency before amongst a certain age group. Do what you want to do, ignore social media if it does not meet your needs/expectations. Done.

For my part, I enjoy the thespian tone to Critical Role. I don't run my games like Matt Mercer, our DMing styles are different, but I enjoy it for what it is - entertainment. There are other D&D streams I enjoy and others I don't - I no longer watch the streams I don't like.

By the way, being mad at Paizo is just the latest example of edition churn angst - been there, bought the T shirt with many games. It's happened before and it will happen again. If people don't like PF2E then stick with PF1E. Of course, in my experience, the real problem is that players want to - usually - play the latest thing because they have easy access to the rules and because of the hype around the New Shiny. Then the angst is real. This is why I'm so damn grateful that D&D 5E is so stable and appears to be around for some time.

You can be mad at Paizo/'insert RPG publisher here' but in the end you either get with the new or stick with the old for as long as possible/quit the game. Being mad doesn't make any difference and is a waste of energy.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Imagine a streaming show where the players gather around elaborately crafted Dwarven Forge dungeon setups, with the game focused almost exclusively on tactical maneuver and combat in the dungeon. The DM is adversarial and mocks the players relentlessly, while the players fist-pump, high-five, and do shots of jaegermeister whenever they win a combat. Each episode wraps with a graphic showing the total kills and GP gained by the players. And this stream is so popular that it defines D&D in the popular consciousness.

Now, if this stream's approach to D&D wasn't your cup of tea, if you found it off-putting, this could - in a small way - make D&D feel to you like something that wasn't your jam.
No, it couldn't. They can do them, and it has zero effect on me. I've no problem with what you've described, but even if you found something that was really off-putting to me, I would not watch it, not consider it a problem to worry about.
 

Fanaelialae

Adventurer
Imagine a streaming show where the players gather around elaborately crafted Dwarven Forge dungeon setups, with the game focused almost exclusively on tactical maneuver and combat in the dungeon. The DM is adversarial and mocks the players relentlessly, while the players fist-pump, high-five, and do shots of jaegermeister whenever they win a combat. Each episode wraps with a graphic showing the total kills and GP gained by the players. And this stream is so popular that it defines D&D in the popular consciousness.

Now, if this stream's approach to D&D wasn't your cup of tea, if you found it off-putting, this could - in a small way - make D&D feel to you like something that wasn't your jam.
The only case it would bother me would be if they behaved in a boorish manner that made me embarrassed to be associated with them.

CR isn't like that. They've made it a point since the begining to be very positive and even raise money for charity.

My table isn't much like theirs, but I'm glad to have nice people like them representing our hobby.
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
Before streaming RPGs was I had wished for a while that I could watch other people play like that. And then it came along and I found out that I did not enjoy watching it as much as I thought I would. But I am really happy that other people enjoy watching it. I think growing the culture of RPGs is good for all of us, and it does that.

I think whether you like watching any particular game is not just a function of the people and the style though. I think what is actually going on in the game counts. Knights of Everflame is the first one I watched (though I have not watched that much) that really clicked for me. And it pretty much comes down to the characters of Linnaeus and Omelette. They are hilarious and their antics are fun. You need characters with hooks that viewers like to be a successful stream I think. But not everyone is necessarily hooked by the same things (or necessarily at all).

I have crap rural Internet so I am probably not going to give Critical Role another go from the beginning right now. Maybe one day though.
 

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