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5E Making Sneak Attack allow more weapons

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
So no one has gone with Halberd, Pollarm Master, Great Weapon Master, with a dip into fighter for great weapon fighting? You now have two attacks -5 to hit +10 to damage and you reroll 1s and 2s for the sneak attack dice. Variant Human allows this at 5th level.
The -5 to hit +10 to damage is just straight-up a bad choice for a rogue in almost all cases. Two attacks is something rogues can already get with dual-wielding or crossbow mastery. Rerolling 1s and 2s is very strong. If you’re worried about that, maybe require the weapon to be light or to not be two-handed or versatile.
 

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dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
So no one has gone with Halberd, Pollarm Master, Great Weapon Master, with a dip into fighter for great weapon fighting? You now have two attacks -5 to hit +10 to damage and you reroll 1s and 2s for the sneak attack dice. Variant Human allows this at 5th level.
Well, it isn't really a "dip" if you are getting two attacks unless you just mean the reaction attack from PAM. Most of the time, you'll only be getting one attack per turn. To maximize the odds of landing the sneak attack, many rogues use two-weapon fighting for this reason and it is why no rogue subclass gets Extra Attack.

Also, even on the d6's, the GWF style raises your average from 3.5 to 4.167, or 2/3 a point per die. Even with a 10d6 sneak attack this is only 6.67 damage. And most rogues generally won't get above 5d6, so you are only talking 3, maybe 4, points of damage gained.

Now, unless you have advantage, the -5 to attack also means you will miss your sneak attacks more than the +10 benefit is worth.

While it might seem like a potent combination, it isn't really that effective and you are doing it at the expense of two feats and a fighter level. Also, at 5th level, that fighter dip is costing you a d6 of sneak attack, about 2 points of damage typically, making the GWF style even less impactful.
 

I removed the Finesse weapon restriction for Sneak Attack completely. Rogues can fight dirty with any weapon with which they are proficient.

It hasn't broken anything.
PAM with semi-reliable off-turn sneak attack is a bit too narrow+strong for me here.

If you can arrange for off-turn advantage and PAM, enemies who approach get a sneak attack, then again on the rogue's turn.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
PAM with semi-reliable off-turn sneak attack is a bit too narrow+strong for me here.

If you can arrange for off-turn advantage and PAM, enemies who approach get a sneak attack, then again on the rogue's turn.
But that's part of the problem, how can you arrange for off-turn advantage? Nothing immediately comes to mind...

Now, if the target is within 5 feet of an enemy when it enters your reach, that would do it I would think.
 

But that's part of the problem, how can you arrange for off-turn advantage? Nothing immediately comes to mind...

Now, if the target is within 5 feet of an enemy when it enters your reach, that would do it I would think.
Lots of ways? Familiar aiding, darkness and trusight, faerie fire, invisibility.

It does require a bit of support, but not insane amounts.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Lots of ways? Familiar aiding, darkness and trusight, faerie fire, invisibility.

It does require a bit of support, but not insane amounts.
Sorry, I was thinking more in lines of what the rogue might be doing himself and would be consistent for the build. Faerie fire is probably the best bet for an Arcane Trickster but relies on a failed save. Familiar aiding would help, too, but can depend on initiative order (if the target is going between it and you).

Things like invisibility are once only (unless Greater), and with darkness you can't see them so that would cancel your advantage with disadvantage.

I'm not saying those aren't good ideas or ways to accomplish it, I was just thinking more... reliable?

Personally, I find Sentinel as one of the best ways for rogues to get OA sneak attack and you could use it often enough unless you are fighting something solo. Still depends a lot on the situation though...
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
So no one has gone with Halberd, Pollarm Master, Great Weapon Master, with a dip into fighter for great weapon fighting? You now have two attacks -5 to hit +10 to damage and you reroll 1s and 2s for the sneak attack dice. Variant Human allows this at 5th level.
I'd be more concerned with the fighter 5 using this build than the fighter1/rogue 4.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Well, it isn't really a "dip" if you are getting two attacks unless you just mean the reaction attack from PAM. Most of the time, you'll only be getting one attack per turn. To maximize the odds of landing the sneak attack, many rogues use two-weapon fighting for this reason and it is why no rogue subclass gets Extra Attack.
I think they’re talking about the bonus action 1d4 bludgeoning attack from PAM.
 


Horwath

Adventurer
Just have it with any weapon. It will not break anything.

Also using -5/+10 with sneak attack is losing DPR in 90% of the cases.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I think they’re talking about the bonus action 1d4 bludgeoning attack from PAM.
Probably, but just to be certain you know... :)

The other downside to PAM weapons is you need STR for them... so it makes your build more MAD.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
Probably, but just to be certain you know... :)

The other downside to PAM weapons is you need STR for them... so it makes your build more MAD.
Since the specified build mentioned a fighter dip, I'd assume they'd just go Str-focused with heavy armor.
 

So no one has gone with Halberd, Pollarm Master, Great Weapon Master, with a dip into fighter for great weapon fighting? You now have two attacks -5 to hit +10 to damage and you reroll 1s and 2s for the sneak attack dice. Variant Human allows this at 5th level.
Taking the -5 to hit is generally bad for rogues: It gets worse as your per-attack damage gets better. You're now using a Str-based weapon which is going to hurt the Rogue in its traditional areas of capability.
Rerolling non-weapon damage like sneak attacks and smites has been addressed by Jeremy Crawford. In short; you don't.
At 5th level a pure Fighter would probably be more effective with their 3 attacks at -5/+10.


PAM with semi-reliable off-turn sneak attack is a bit too narrow+strong for me here.

If you can arrange for off-turn advantage and PAM, enemies who approach get a sneak attack, then again on the rogue's turn.
Getting an off-turn sneak attack really isn't that reliable without aid from your party. Having an opponent be within 5 feet of an ally at the point where it moves to within 10 feet of you can be tricky.
If the rest of the party are needed to set up that sneak attack for you, then that is fine. Teamwork is good and if you only get it off because of the wizard, then that is the wizard being strong, not just the rogue.

Since the specified build mentioned a fighter dip, I'd assume they'd just go Str-focused with heavy armor.
You can't dump Dex though: you still need to assign enough points to it at character creation to qualify for multiclassing. You also lose out on your Evasion class ability and Dex-based skills/ability checks.
 


TrueBagelMan

Explorer
Probably, but just to be certain you know... :)

The other downside to PAM weapons is you need STR for them... so it makes your build more MAD.
Quarter Staff is a wooden weapon. Someone in my DnD group is making a rogueX/Nature Cleric 1 so they get medium armor, shield, and Shillelagh to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity. Since they really wanted to use “Wooden Daggers” which have the stats of a quarterstaff and a shield.
 


dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Also if someone Shillelaghed a quarterstaff and had PAM does the bonus action attack also become a d8?
No, it is still a d4, Shillelagh doesn't make the bonus action a d8. JC covered this in a Sage Advice. (I was going to do the same thing for my Nature Cleric! LOL :) )
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Quarter Staff is a wooden weapon. Someone in my DnD group is making a rogueX/Nature Cleric 1 so they get medium armor, shield, and Shillelagh to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity. Since they really wanted to use “Wooden Daggers” which have the stats of a quarterstaff and a shield.
Sure, but then again you are losing one level of rogue, so again your sneak attack will suffer slightly.

On the plus side, some good skills rely on WIS so a high score there will help the build. Also, with your current wording of Sneak Attack in the OP, the Shillelagh would be reduced back to a d6 IMO since the sneak attack is the last feature affected the attack. But, that is up to interpretation...
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I’d get rid of all weapon restrictions for the rogue and monk, frankly.

The idea that the rogue being able to hit and move without disengaging is somehow broken is laughable to me.
 

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