D&D 5E Making Sneak Attack allow more weapons

[MostlyHarmless42]

I think light weapons would be ok but I would be against doing it with others. GWM+sneak attack would break things pretty quickly. You could sneak attack with reach and +10 damage and then move away without needing to disengage. Even not counting the +10, with a greatsword you are also getting double the weapon damage of most finesse weapons. You are sneak attacking as rogue 2 levels higher ... but better yet you can get that extra d6 even when you don't have advantage or other sneak attack conditions.

You could even sneak attack with reach then dash as a bonus and be completely out of range for whoever you are fighting so the guy you are fighting can't retaliate. I know you can do that with swashbuckler already with a normal weapon, or an rogue with a whip, but is only 1d4 and precludes dual wield. Or you need to take swashbuckler to do with any other weapon and give up the bonuses and benefits you get with mastermind, assassin or thief. Doing it with a reach weapon getting massive damage would make swashbuckler more or less a useless kit.

I think to do it for all weapons without breaking things it would need to be a feat and I would still consider making it only work within 5 feet for non-finesse weapons.

Let's be clear though and not ignore two very important points here to consider:
1) The two handed weapons you suggest are NOT finesse weapons, which means the rogue now needs both strength AND dexterity to function or have an absolutely abysmal AC, and is also now spending at least one of his crucially need ASI to get GWM.

2) The rogue is not proficient by default with any of those weapons, or most twohanded weapons in general really.

I'd wager both of those are an important balancing factor that shouldn't be overlooked.

Now, the obvious thing to consider next is of course taking levels in another class, in which the player has one of two options: starting rogue and being capped at medium armor (which results in an AC similar to a rogue with 20 dex), but still requires dex of 14 AND strength, OR starting as a fighter or paladin and then not having dexterity save proficiency, which is...kind of a big deal for rogues what with evasion and all. And again any suggestion of taking more feats to shore up this is still competing with them needing both dex and strength alongside GWM.

The main concern would be a fighter (or possibly paladin with smite) going a few levels of rogue to boost their damage, but honestly I'm not convinced it would be that much of a damage increase over staying pure fighter or paladin, especially considering the more rogue they take, the more their extra attack(s) or spellcasting is delayed or other class features. Not sure it's worth it.

Now, to suggest something, I'd probably make it an archetype of rogue to let them do sneak attack with any weapons and give said archetype martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency. Make that their 3rd level features, though they might need a ribbon feature or something. Call it the "thug" and come up with some ideas for stuff that helps fit the idea of a brutish rogue.

The other option, as suggested is a feat.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Let's be clear though and not ignore two very important points here to consider:
1) The two handed weapons you suggest are NOT finesse weapons, which means the rogue now needs both strength AND dexterity to function or have an absolutely abysmal AC, and is also now spending at least one of his crucially need ASI to get GWM.

A rogue could do without a high dex by acquiring medium armour proficiency, ether from multiclassing, a feat or from race (dwarf, tortle).

2) The rogue is not proficient by default with any of those weapons, or most twohanded weapons in general really.

Rogues are proficient in longswords - versatile d10.

Other proficences can be acquired without too much difficulty via race, multiclassing or feat.

 

[Spartan_MD]

I think the issue here is that it makes sense that a rogue would be able to sneak attack with some weapons not on the list, but it needs to be balanced to avoid abuse. Allowing simple weapons brings up images of a halforc thug wielding a great club with both hands, a dual wielding dwarven trapsmith flinging a hand axe or a halfing with a spear. All which are simple weapons. I’d also like to see an elven rogue deftly weilding a longsword or a longbow, both which are martial. Two handed wielding is still a d8 with simple weapons which is equivalent to a rapier’s damage, and you can’t wield an offhand dagger for another shot at sneak attack you miss.

 

[auburn2]

I can see the damage boost, but can’t you already do that with the Whip?

But whip does only 1d4, so yes you can do it but you are giving up 2 DPR compared to a rapier (and 4.5 dpr compared to a great sword). So while it is powerful with a whip it is also a steep price to pay.

 

[auburn2]

I'd at the very least expand the allowed weapons to light, to allow for Sneak Attacks with clubs and handaxes and such.

(Also to buff the Assassin specifically, I'd allow that subclass to Sneak Attack with any weapon, period, and give that subclass proficiency with all weapons, making for a throwback to the 1e Assassin and giving the 5e version a bit of a neat boost.)

I don't really think assasin needs any buffs. If I was giving out extra buffs to rogues it would be to masterminds, and maybe theifs, or maybe even combine those two subclasses.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

A rogue could do without a high dex by acquiring medium armour proficiency, ether from multiclassing, a feat or from race (dwarf, tortle).

Rogues are proficient in longswords - versatile d10.

Other proficences can be acquired without too much difficulty via race, multiclassing or feat.

Except that using Great Weapon Master, the feat combination originally in question requires the use of a heavy weapon, which rogues neither have proficiency with (unless they gain it through a racial), nor allow dexterity to wield. Thus my point about still needing both strength and dexterity stands.

I'd also go so far as to claim that the races that do get weapons or armor proficiencies as racial are the very sort of races whose rogues this concept should exist for.

Also, for the record, a rogue by default rules already can pick up both sneak attack and sharpshooter, which has an identical damage increase option to bows or crossbows already. I'd have to look up the threads to confirm, but I believe an extensive mathematical analysis was already done that supported that the trade off was rarely worth it for rogues because the risk of missing was far worse than for a fighter (because of sneak attack on a single attack vs multiple attacks). Again I'd have to confirm it. Odds are GWM would be no different if rogues could do it.

 

[auburn2]

Let's be clear though and not ignore two very important points here to consider:
1) The two handed weapons you suggest are NOT finesse weapons, which means the rogue now needs both strength AND dexterity to function or have an absolutely abysmal AC, and is also now spending at least one of his crucially need ASI to get GWM.

2) The rogue is not proficient by default with any of those weapons, or most twohanded weapons in general really.

I'd wager both of those are an important balancing factor that shouldn't be overlooked.

Now, the obvious thing to consider next is of course taking levels in another class, in which the player has one of two options: starting rogue and being capped at medium armor (which results in an AC similar to a rogue with 20 dex), but still requires dex of 14 AND strength, OR starting as a fighter or paladin and then not having dexterity save proficiency, which is...kind of a big deal for rogues what with evasion and all. And again any suggestion of taking more feats to shore up this is still competing with them needing both dex and strength alongside GWM.

The main concern would be a fighter (or possibly paladin with smite) going a few levels of rogue to boost their damage, but honestly I'm not convinced it would be that much of a damage increase over staying pure fighter or paladin, especially considering the more rogue they take, the more their extra attack(s) or spellcasting is delayed or other class features. Not sure it's worth it.

Now, to suggest something, I'd probably make it an archetype of rogue to let them do sneak attack with any weapons and give said archetype martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency. Make that their 3rd level features, though they might need a ribbon feature or something. Call it the "thug" and come up with some ideas for stuff that helps fit the idea of a brutish rogue.

The other option, as suggested is a feat.

Disagree on 1 and 2. On 1 he can have an armor class of 10 and be effective because he will rarely be attacked as he gets dash as a bonus action every round unless it is a very cramped space. As others have said he has a lot of options for medium armor and even a few ways to get heavy armor with a 1-level dip. A rogue is not proficient with the best 2-handed weapons, but he is proficient with spear, quarterstaff and longsword.

I think ASIs are overated. IMO, a feat is better in most cases. The only time I have taken ASIs at all are when I needed to bump a stat that is 11 or 12 to 13+ to multiclass or when I got really horrid rolls in a stat I needed for the type character I was building. In this particular case I can take an ASI and get +1 to hit and +1 to damage every round as well as saves and skils .... or take a feat that gets me +10 to damage on about 70% of the attacks that would have hit and regular bonus action attacks with a high damage weapon and full ability damage modifiers.

I could agree with it being a kit, but it would have to be the thing that kit does - allow sneak attack with any weapons. Add in proficiency on intimidation at level 9, a second attack at 13th level and a fighting style at 17th level. I could go for that. Then you still have to go out and get the proficiency through some other method to use greatswords or the like.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

Disagree on 1 and 2. On 1 he can have an armor class of 10 and be effective because he will rarely be attacked as he gets dash as a bonus action every round unless it is a very cramped space. As others have said he has a lot of options for medium armor and even a few ways to get heavy armor with a 1-level dip. A rogue is not proficient with the best 2-handed weapons, but he is proficient with spear, quarterstaff and longsword.

I think ASIs are overated. IMO, a feat is better in most cases. The only time I have taken ASIs at all are when I needed to bump a stat that is 11 or 12 to 13+ to multiclass or when I got really horrid rolls in a stat I needed for the type character I was building. In this particular case I can take an ASI and get +1 to hit and +1 to damage every round as well as saves and skils .... or take a feat that gets me +10 to damage on about 70% of the attacks that would have hit and regular bonus action attacks with a high damage weapon and full ability damage modifiers.

I could agree with it being a kit, but it would have to be the thing that kit does - allow sneak attack with any weapons. Add in proficiency on intimidation at level 9, a second attack at 13th level and a fighting style at 17th level. I could go for that. Then you still have to go out and get the proficiency through some other method to use greatswords or the like.

That is not a bad option for a quick throw together archetype. Probably could use some fine tuning, but that is a good start.

For the record, if said rogue had an AC of 10, he could dash...and provoke an attack of opportunity by doing so. Or he could disengage and move 30ft, and still be in range for reprisal from most enemies. Only way said rogue is getting away without wishing his ac was higher is by giving up his attacks, in which case he might as well have a weapon that deals 1d100 damage for all we're concerned, his DPS that round is 0.

I still disagree on ASI not being important for a class that would effectively need 2 ability scores of at least 14 minimum to function. Also, this is assuming he cares not for any decent mental stats, i.e. INT for arcane trickster, charisma, etc. It adds up. And again...as stated you CANNOT use GWM (the combination I was replying about) with a spear, quarterstaff, or longsword. Ergo the rogue is not proficient with any weapon of them by default, except the races that get them, or by multiclassing and delaying their access to sneak attack or feats/asi. And again I'd argue that for races like Dwarf and Half-orc that is how they should rogue. That we cannot do it by RAW is a bit unfortunate.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That is not a bad option for a quick throw together archetype. Probably could use some fine tuning, but that is a good start.

For the record, if said rogue had an AC of 10, he could dash...and provoke an attack of opportunity by doing so. Or he could disengage and move 30ft, and still be in range for reprisal from most enemies. Only way said rogue is getting away without wishing his ac was higher is by giving up his attacks, in which case he might as well have a weapon that deals 1d100 damage for all we're concerned, his DPS that round is 0.

I still disagree on ASI not being important for a class that would effectively need 2 ability scores of at least 14 minimum to function. Also, this is assuming he cares not for any decent mental stats, i.e. INT for arcane trickster, charisma, etc. It adds up. And again...as stated you CANNOT use GWM (the combination I was replying about) with a spear, quarterstaff, or longsword. Ergo the rogue is not proficient with any weapon of them by default, except the races that get them, or by multiclassing and delaying their access to sneak attack or feats/asi. And again I'd argue that for races like Dwarf and Half-orc that is how they should rogue. That we cannot do it by RAW is a bit unfortunate.

Things like this are why I argued certain subclasses should be universal. Assassins, for instance, could function very well as a fighter.

 

[auburn2]

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For the record, if said rogue had an AC of 10, he could dash...and provoke an attack of opportunity by doing so.

No he does NOT provoke an attack of opportunity because he can attack with a reach weapon. That is a big reason why it breaks the game. Does great damage with a reach weapon from 10' away and allows the rogue to use dash which is a free bonus action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Sure on some monsters (those with reach) this doesn't work as it doesn't work if he chooses a non-reach weapon but on most monsters it does.

That is the point, under the current rules there are only 3 ways to SA + dash without an opportunity attack - those are take the swashbuckler kit (and it is the main thing that kit does), use a whip which allows reach but does awful damage or take mobility as a feat. This would allow any rogue with martial proficiency to have mobility equivalent to a swashbuckler, while doing better damage to boot.