D&D 5E Making Sneak Attack allow more weapons

[MostlyHarmless42]

No he does NOT provoke an attack of opportunity because he can attack with a reach weapon. That is a big reason why it breaks the game. Does great damage with a reach weapon from 10' away and allows the rogue to use dash which is a free bonus action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Sure on some monsters (those with reach) this doesn't work as it doesn't work if he chooses a non-reach weapon but on most monsters it does.

That is the point, under the current rules there are only 3 ways to SA + dash without an opportunity attack - those are take the swashbuckler kit (and it is the main thing that kit does), use a whip which allows reach but does awful damage or take mobility as a feat. This would allow any rogue with martial proficiency to have mobility equivalent to a swashbuckler, while doing better damage to boot.

Except I'm still not convinced this "breaks the game". A rogue can already combine a d8 weapon with sneak attack and a longbow via sharpshooter, or a crossbow without disadvantage in melee using another feat, and both of these are deemed "acceptable". And after all, according to the other post, apparently we are to be considering the feat vs ASI opportunity cost as unimportant, remember?

And a reach weapon will only deal an average of 1 extra damage over a rapier, unless he is using GWM (which again has a higher opportunity cost for rogues than fighters due to risking missing their only sneak attack that round), which is what a swashbuckler would be wielding if they wanted to use the attack/dash tactic. By your logic swashbuckler "breaks the game".

I for one welcome a rogue to try that sort of cheesy s*** in my games. I'll respond by letting him get away with it for a bit to reward him for playing how he wishes and have his fun, then deck him with ranged attacks or monsters with reach, a flight speed, or spells every now and then to remind him that he isn't invincible. Not every opponent is or should be a 30ft movement speed melee only fight. And try that on a horde of goblins. Kind of hard to dash without provoking if the party is surrounded on all sides. Is it a strong tactic? Sure. But it hardly "breaks the game".

 

[auburn2]

Except I'm still not convinced this "breaks the game". A rogue can already combine a d8 weapon with sneak attack and a longbow via sharpshooter, or a crossbow without disadvantage in melee using another feat, and both of these are deemed "acceptable". And after all, according to the other post, apparently we are to be considering the feat vs ASI opportunity cost as unimportant, remember?

And a reach weapon will only deal an average of 1 extra damage over a rapier, unless he is using GWM (which again has a higher opportunity cost for rogues than fighters due to risking missing their only sneak attack that round), which is what a swashbuckler would be wielding if they wanted to use the attack/dash tactic. By your logic swashbuckler "breaks the game".

I for one welcome a rogue to try that sort of cheesy s*** in my games. I'll respond by letting him get away with it for a bit to reward him for playing how he wishes and have his fun, then deck him with ranged attacks or monsters with reach, a flight speed, or spells every now and then to remind him that he isn't invincible. Not every opponent is or should be a 30ft movement speed melee only fight. And try that on a horde of goblins. Kind of hard to dash without provoking if the party is surrounded on all sides. Is it a strong tactic? Sure. But it hardly "breaks the game".

It is not the same IMO, missile attacks are more difficult to land as sneak attacks due to cover (especially with allies in your way) so your -5 for sharpshooter will routinely be -7 or -10 if you want the extra damage. If you take crossbow expert then no, but now you are talking 2 feats to get that high damage and you still have to disengage or risk an OA. A feat to allow SA with any weapon would be ok with me (although I still think a kit works better).

Swashbuckler is an extremely powerful kit, probably the top rogue kit when it comes to pure combat power RAW and that is key - you have to take that swashbuckler kit (or the mobility feat) to get that ability. A swashbuckler who could also get the assassins advantage on the first round, crits on all surprised opponents while also doing, as you noted, 1 more point of damage to boot - that would be OP. That is what you have when you take an assassin and let him SA with a reach weapon.

Your last paragraph would be a real problem for me either as a DM or a player. You are saying the rules should allow this and then you are going to deck your player and punish him for following the rules you say should exist?

 

[DND_Reborn]

It is not the same IMO, missile attacks are more difficult to land as sneak attacks due to cover (especially with allies in your way) so your -5 for sharpshooter will routinely be -7 or -10 if you want the extra damage. If you take crossbow expert then no, but now you are talking 2 feats to get that high damage and you still have to disengage or risk an OA. A feat to allow SA with any weapon would be ok with me (although I still think a kit works better).

FWIW, remember SS makes it so you ignore half- and 3/4-cover. So, allies in the fight won't hinder the rogue sharpshooter at all. In fact, having an ally attack the target provokes sneak attack, making ranged SS perfect for it. So, you are only accept the -5 attack penalty.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

It is not the same IMO, missile attacks are more difficult to land as sneak attacks due to cover (especially with allies in your way) so your -5 for sharpshooter will routinely be -7 or -10 if you want the extra damage. If you take crossbow expert then no, but now you are talking 2 feats to get that high damage and you still have to disengage or risk an OA. A feat to allow SA with any weapon would be ok with me (although I still think a kit works better).

Swashbuckler is an extremely powerful kit, probably the top rogue kit when it comes to pure combat power RAW and that is key - you have to take that swashbuckler kit (or the mobility feat) to get that ability. A swashbuckler who could also get the assassins advantage on the first round, crits on all surprised opponents while also doing, as you noted, 1 more point of damage to boot - that would be OP. That is what you have when you take an assassin and let him SA with a reach weapon.

Your last paragraph would be a real problem for me either as a DM or a player. You are saying the rules should allow this and then you are going to deck your player and punish him for following the rules you say should exist?

My last paragraph indicates that I do what every DM should do, give players both a chance to shine (as I said I would) for their build choices, and provide them with challenges that they have to overcome because they exploit their weaknesses. In the same way you dont let the wizard solve every fight with fireball, you shouldn't let every fight be easily dealt with by one rogue. Let him be good at killing single targets, it's what he wanted to do by rolling that build. The best fights/stories shouldn't be just about killing each other anyway. Give them objectives to do in combat aside from "kill the bad guys".

 

[Mistwell]

Swashbuckler is an extremely powerful kit, probably the top rogue kit when it comes to pure combat power RAW

That's an interesting assertion and one I think is worth exploring. I don't want to drag the thread away from the main topic, but if the OP is OK with it, I'd be curious if Arcane Trickster can out-combat the Swashbuckler on a level-for-level basis?

 

[auburn2]

That's an interesting assertion and one I think is worth exploring. I don't want to drag the thread away from the main topic, but if the OP is OK with it, I'd be curious if Arcane Trickster can out-combat the Swashbuckler on a level-for-level basis?

I would say that depends on your definition.

I think the typical AT is not as effective in combat, round for round, over a typical adventuring day in a typical adventuring party as swashbucker for a few reasons - most of the spells are illusion or enchantment, they mostly require concentration and they have limited castings. Also if they are casting they are generally not using SA, which is the priemier combat ability for all rogues. Having spells on hand can give them another "good" combat option if SA is not available, especially with one of their non-concentration spells or an evocation they were able to pick up. The swashbuckler is a 1-trick pony but it is difficult to deny their SA. For pure combat the swachbucker gets an initiative bonus and the ability to sneak attack with no need to disengage with either hide (which can create a SA opportunity) or dash as a BA. That is my thoughts on it

If you are talking a single battle where the AT enters with all his spells and uses them without regard/conservation, it is closer, although concentration still complicates this and he probably won't be able to use all his spell slots in one fight.

If you are talking about a 1-on-1 death match, that is a different story. The AT is more versatile and if you optimize the AT for this fight (for example with blur and shield) then at high levels the AT wins hands down.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's an interesting assertion and one I think is worth exploring. I don't want to drag the thread away from the main topic, but if the OP is OK with it, I'd be curious if Arcane Trickster can out-combat the Swashbuckler on a level-for-level basis?

Also not to threadjack, but with Booming Blade and/or Green-flame Blade, and at mid and higher levels Shadowblade when needed, yeah, I would say an AT can out-perform a Swashbuckler in most cases (certainly on raw damage potential). There are so many spells that potentially can give the AT advantage on attack rolls that IMO it matches the Swashbuckler most of the time, even in that respect. But, unless we start a new thread on it, I'll leave it at that.