Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

Status
Not open for further replies.

HammerMan

Legend
One. Subclass
Okay 4 core classes. How many sun classes for each?

Edit: I find 9 fighter 13 wizard 9 for rogue and cleric 14
So if the 4 core class it is 16 non caster (remeber 1 rogue and 1 fighter become casters) 29 caster… it’s not 2 to 1 but close
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
lots of things are just questions of degrees are important.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best.


If a wizard has given up a 7th slot to do this what would you have a fighter give up to achieve the same effect?

Fighters don't have many base resources in most editions. If fighter had more, HP could be an option.

That essentially is the core problems

  1. The desire for simple martials by D&D designers
  2. The lack of higher tier martials in pre-mid1980s fantasy literature as inspirations
  3. The unwillingness to use post-mid1980s fantasy literature as inspiration for martials
 

No, it is not a weird question. The fact that you see it as strange tells me how little you actually understand the issue.

Martials have an explicit rule defining how many attacks they get in a turn.

Unless you're saying you're confused by how Extra Attack works, it is in fact a weird question to ask, unless of course you're going out of your way to try and say no to the 11th level Fighter when they want to Pocker Sand the three goblins they stab.

Like you just said though, improvised action won't allow me to do that

It will.

There is absolutely no "improvised action" which would allow me to restrain multiple targets.

If your character has a rope or a really strong kneecap-breaking stick I beg to differ.

You wouldn't allow my character to improvise an attack that any equivalent level caster could do.

Did I ever say this or are you just assuming what I think in lieu of, idk, asking me?

And yes, I would allow it. See the rope and/or kneecap stick comment.

draws the line at limiting effects to the number of attacks you have - thus a fighter can never, ever blind as many targets as a wizard could, no matter what he does.

The Fighter doesn't have to rely on a saving throw. 😉

Almost like I explicitly said "no saving throw" for a reason.

You don't mind the blinding effect, but, a fighter can't "jump a building" which a 1st level caster can do.

Acrobatics. Ropes. Grappling hook. Etc.

Its more than a little strange that you keep trying to skip over having an actual conversation with me to make some pretty big assumptions about what Id say or do.

Like, even if you're that hesitant to just talk to me, Im on record in this topic homebrewing DCC's Mighty Deed to completely remove the GMs input on whether or not a player gets to do their Deed. That alone disproves the assumptions you're making about what I would and wouldn't allow.

i get your point that it is technically a rule but it's like the barest shadow of an outline of a rule, 'maybe your GM will ask for a skill check to see if you're successful at your action', that's nothing, it provides no player leverage to do anything worth anything with any degree of reliability or even the security that you'll be allowed to be able to attempt it in the first place, and even if you do suceed your effects most likely won't be powerful or long-lasting.

Hence, again, why Ive stated multiple times in this topic that it can be better integrated and provided two examples of how it can be done.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best

Indeed which is reasonably balanced against a flat 1d6 duration with no saves.

Yet again, its almost like I said what I said very deliberately for a reason.

Except for spells. Then it is rules over rulings

Sure, because as said, without more substantive guidelines its too easy to just turn your brain off and use "its magic" to justify eliminating the game entirely. You don't need to have a bajillion codified buttons like 5e does, but you do need structure, and much more than mundane approaches do (and ideally you'd have a mix of both for both sides, as Im trying to do with LNO)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Indeed with the right set of magic items a party of fighter don’t need any caster at all.
True, but the game works best with a mix.
And we're talking about something as basic as "throw sand in the eyes". Yet, there is no mechanical guidance for doing that. TEN YEARS and we have zero guidance for how a fighter can do something so basic.
Why would there be guidance on that after the PHB?
Let's be perfectly honest here. At 99.99% of tables out there, the answer would be a simple, "nope, you can't do that." At best, you might be able to blind 2 because you have two attacks, but, even if it was allowed, it would work for one round, if you succeed.
Your experience of the game is vastly different from mine.
We have a couple of paragraphs for how everything else works.

And, as far as I'm concerned, the worst part is, people actually LIKE it this way. Casters get all the love and non-casters might as well not even exist.
What’s the big deal with the “10 YEARS”?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay 4 core classes. How many sun classes for each?

Edit: I find 9 fighter 13 wizard 9 for rogue and cleric 14
So if the 4 core class it is 16 non caster (remeber 1 rogue and 1 fighter become casters) 29 caster… it’s not 2 to 1 but close
More importantly, because the phb subclasses for wizard and cleric are silly, how many since the PHB. After all, I was replying to a comment about wizards getting so many spells post phb.
 

HammerMan

Legend
More importantly, because the phb subclasses for wizard and cleric are silly, how many since the PHB. After all, I was replying to a comment about wizards getting so many spells post phb.
Except the wizard started with the most subclasses. Then casters got more spells lots more. The fighter in 1 book got a few new BM manuvers. The casters got more subclasses then non casters.
 


Remathilis

Legend
That's where multiple classes come in and where D&D fails.
Different classes have different peaks.

The barbarian who just gets stronger, faster, and tougher must bypass Olympian standards if it is to keep up with the Archmage.

The weaponmaster who knows Sensei Wu's Waterfall Slash, Chief Fan's Quashing Pummel, and Lord Ramber's Sword Reign only needs to get to Olympic standards as their special moves are epic.

Whereas the greatest knight does not need to even be Olympic as they have extreme Charm and can attract an intelligent Sword of Chivalry that will only attune to the most knightly of knights.
Amazingly, that answered nothing I was asking.

What is allowing the barbarian to beat Olympian standards? Magic, divine blood, primal spirits, or what? When the weaponmaster uses his epic special moves, are we talking WWE or Super Sayan? When the knight gets his intelligent magic sword, it's the sword that's special and doing the magic wahoo stuff, he's just bearer?

Because I keep asking for a REASON a character can transcend the limits of mere mortals, and I keep getting "lulz, IDK, XP maybe?" and an answer. Actually, what I keep getting is "the wizard can do it and that's not FAIR!"

So I will state this again, as clearly as I can.

A Barbarian is infused with primal spirits that manifest as rage. A Monk trains his spirit and focuses ki into impossible maneuvers. A bloodhunter uses alchemy and magic to infuse his blood. A ranger is in tune with nature, a paladin is blessed by the divine, a warlock imbued by its patron. All of them get the ability to laugh at the limits of normal people due to some supernatural force in story that powers their abilities.

What is powering the fighter's ability to break past mortal limits? The answer determines the peak. Even amongst the current fighter subclasses, each has a different peak. The psi-warrior uses psionics to do telekinetic stuff. Rune knights use rune magic to grow large. Arcane archers use magical arrows. But champions don't have any magic and surprise they don't get to jump mountains. If you added a "Kryptonian" subclass to fighters, I'd be okay with them flying, stopping bullets, or using ice breath. But the base fighter doesn't unless he too is assumed to be supernatural and explained as such. No "¯\(ツ)/¯", an in-universe explanation in the game book that says why Bob the fighter can now fly at 13th level.

Give me that and you have my vote.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
After the PHB, Wizards got Bladesinging, Scribes and War Magic, plus Chronurgy and Graviturgy if you count Wildemount.

Fighter got Arcane Archer, Banneret, Cavalier, Psi Warrior, Rune Knight and Samurai, plus Echo Knight if you count Wildemount.

Wizard seems to have gained 118 new spells after the PHB.
 

Stalker0

Legend
please name a daily that a wizard could pop that would do that. I would love to see that play report. Remember though it is being compared to fighter warlord ranger and rogue 25th level dailies too.
Spell name escapes me, it was the bigbys spell that you get 2 of the hands and you can slam them together. That one often controlled the battlefield and did lots of damage.

Visions of avarice with orb of imposition was a big encounter controller.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Amazingly, that answered nothing I was asking.

What is allowing the barbarian to beat Olympian standards? Magic, divine blood, primal spirits, or what? When the weaponmaster uses his epic special moves, are we talking WWE or Super Sayan? When the knight gets his intelligent magic sword, it's the sword that's special and doing the magic wahoo stuff, he's just bearer?

Because I keep asking for a REASON a character can transcend the limits of mere mortals, and I keep getting "lulz, IDK, XP maybe?" and an answer. Actually, what I keep getting is "the wizard can do it and that's not FAIR!"

So I will state this again, as clearly as I can.

A Barbarian is infused with primal spirits that manifest as rage. A Monk trains his spirit and focuses ki into impossible maneuvers. A bloodhunter uses alchemy and magic to infuse his blood. A ranger is in tune with nature, a paladin is blessed by the divine, a warlock imbued by its patron. All of them get the ability to laugh at the limits of normal people due to some supernatural force in story that powers their abilities.

What is powering the fighter's ability to break past mortal limits? The answer determines the peak. Even amongst the current fighter subclasses, each has a different peak. The psi-warrior uses psionics to do telekinetic stuff. Rune knights use rune magic to grow large. Arcane archers use magical arrows. But champions don't have any magic and surprise they don't get to jump mountains. If you added a "Kryptonian" subclass to fighters, I'd be okay with them flying, stopping bullets, or using ice breath. But the base fighter doesn't unless he too is assumed to be supernatural and explained as such. No "¯\(ツ)/¯", an in-universe explanation in the game book that says why Bob the fighter can now fly at 13th level.

Give me that and you have my vote.
You're missing the key part.

I never mentioned the fighter. Because the D&D fighter is flawed as an archetype. Because the D&D fighter is many archetype who don't use the same methods.

Each archetype is different. Each archetype has a different reason why the transcend or don't transcend.

Look at the MCU Avengers

Captain America is a fighter. He uses a super soldier potion and a "magic" shield.
Falcon is a fighter. He uses a "magic" suit he learned to pilot.
Black Panther is a fighter. He uses a variant super soldier power and a "magic" suit.
Hawkeye is a fighter. He is weaponmaster and has a skill Expertise.
Thor can be argued as a fighter. He is a special race who take racial feats, a nobility feat, and has artifact weapons.

The issue is D&D makes these subclasses, feats, and items and not base class features.

Just like the 1E Magic User was spilt into 3 classes by 5e, the 1E Fighting Man has to be split into about 7-10 classes.
 

Remathilis

Legend
You're missing the key part.

I never mentioned the fighter. Because the D&D fighter is flawed as an archetype. Because the D&D fighter is many archetype who don't use the same methods.

Each archetype is different. Each archetype has a different reason why the transcend or don't transcend.

Look at the MCU Avengers

Captain America is a fighter. He uses a super soldier potion and a "magic" shield.
Falcon is a fighter. He uses a "magic" suit he learned to pilot.
Black Panther is a fighter. He uses a variant super soldier power and a "magic" suit.
Hawkeye is a fighter. He is weaponmaster and has a skill Expertise.
Thor can be argued as a fighter. He is a special race who take racial feats, a nobility feat, and has artifact weapons.

The issue is D&D makes these subclasses, feats, and items and not base class features.

Just like the 1E Magic User was spilt into 3 classes by 5e, the 1E Fighting Man has to be split into about 7-10 classes.
I haven't missed that point. I'm not sure we need 7 different fighters, but I actually don't have a problem with adding superhuman warrior classes to the game (bloodhunter is a good example of that concept). I'm not even against the notion of removing the "fighter" and replacing it with different warrior classes (gadget fighter, mystic fighter, bloodline fighter, artifact fighter, etc) and completely removing the "just a dude with sword" fighter from the game. At least there is some explanation tied to each. I just don't want "fighters get magical abilities at 11th level now because they need to keep up with wizards" to be the sum and total of the design idea.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I haven't missed that point. I'm not sure we need 7 different fighters, but I actually don't have a problem with adding superhuman warrior classes to the game (bloodhunter is a good example of that concept). I'm not even against the notion of removing the "fighter" and replacing it with different warrior classes (gadget fighter, mystic fighter, bloodline fighter, artifact fighter, etc) and completely removing the "just a dude with sword" fighter from the game. At least there is some explanation tied to each. I just don't want "fighters get magical abilities at 11th level now because they need to keep up with wizards" to be the sum and total of the design idea.
The fighter doesn't need magical abilities at 11th level now because they need to keep up with wizards.

The problem is the gadget fighter, the mystic fighter, the bloodline fighter, the artifact fighter is the same class.

Hawkeye and Falcon keep up with the Avengers and Batman and Green Arrow keep up with the League. They do so with high skills, exordinary weapon use, and special gadgets, things that didn't enter fantasy under martials until after D&D was created.

But Fighters don't get skill buffs in D&D.
High tier weapon use doesn't exist in official 5e.
And Gadgetry is in the hands of DMs or are magic.

"because the core fighter has to be simple."

The harsh truth is the "simple warrior" when it gets to the Paragon/3rd/Avenger/JL tier is almost always magical or dependent on magic items.

The Normal Buttkickers are almost always complex in nature and require a lot of resource management and advantage skill use in their worlds once they get to the Dragons and Demons phase. And many get magic equipment to help.
 

Yeah!! And when he finally got to Rome, how would he kill the tractor trailer sized fire lizard in direct hand to hand combat..

Let's see the engineers do that..

Wait..
what's that??
you're telling me this now??
Never?? Not once?
OK..ok..how about like a just a car sized fire-lizard?..
I don't know mid-sized, like a sedan or something..
..yeah yeah like a tank...
really..only with explosives??
never with his bare hands or like a sharpened stick ..maybe like a hammer..?
Fine..I know. I know. I hear you. I got it..
...
..
Ok..ok..ok..
let's pivot..
John McLane..
No? Ok..
John Rambo..
Really?? Not him either?
Surely John Wick...surel..
Ohh..negative...got it..
...
...
..
Dominic Torreto...???
...
Yes, like a tank or smething..
No, not with his car, just with like his fists or a knife.. you know..a weapon.
..
Nothing???
Awww c'mon man.


...
Hmmmm...
...
Hmmmm..
..
..
You know you could have told all this when I started, and we wouldn't be in this silly mess.
...
..
Wellllll..

We might need to think through this a bit..maybe brainstorm some stuff like a professional dragonfighter might need to be able to do..

..because hooo boy these action movie guys.. useless..
It seems my tongue was too firmly in my cheek.
 

They do so with high skills, exordinary weapon use, and special gadgets, things that didn't enter fantasy under martials until after D&D was created.

I wouldn't say that. Arthurian legend is centered on Arthurs Sword and Scabbard (IIRC) and while many of the Knights swords were merely just named, some were also special unto themselves.

And going further back into myths you have Thor and the other Norse gods who were inundated with magical items, as were many Gods and heroes in old myths like that.

While those stories do have the spectre of "they're gods" hanging over them, if one takes these ancient myths and considers them to not be that fundamentally different from your modern "myths" like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then it can be said that authors reaching back into ancient times recognized that what you point out are valid aspects of a fantasy character, particularly ones that all share a commonality in being warriors.
 

HammerMan

Legend
I wouldn't say that. Arthurian legend is centered on Arthurs Sword and Scabbard (IIRC) and while many of the Knights swords were merely just named, some were also special unto themselves.

And going further back into myths you have Thor and the other Norse gods who were inundated with magical items, as were many Gods and heroes in old myths like that.

While those stories do have the spectre of "they're gods" hanging over them, if one takes these ancient myths and considers them to not be that fundamentally different from your modern "myths" like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then it can be said that authors reaching back into ancient times recognized that what you point out are valid aspects of a fantasy character, particularly ones that all share a commonality in being warriors.
Arthur has multi knights that can do amazing superhuman things
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I wouldn't say that. Arthurian legend is centered on Arthurs Sword and Scabbard (IIRC) and while many of the Knights swords were merely just named, some were also special unto themselves.

And going further back into myths you have Thor and the other Norse gods who were inundated with magical items, as were many Gods and heroes in old myths like that.

While those stories do have the spectre of "they're gods" hanging over them, if one takes these ancient myths and considers them to not be that fundamentally different from your modern "myths" like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then it can be said that authors reaching back into ancient times recognized that what you point out are valid aspects of a fantasy character, particularly ones that all share a commonality in being warriors.

The point is that Thor, Batman, Cap, Arthur, and Hercules aren't the same class.

Or more accurately, if Thor, Batman, Cap, Arthur, and Hercules, are the same class, you'dhave to branch them all out in a "skill tree" or Invocation system which would make them no longer simple.

Either the fighter is no longer simple, you can more classes, or you openly say "You can't play those types of PCs in D&D".
 

HammerMan

Legend
The point is that Thor, Batman, Cap, Arthur, and Hercules aren't the same class.
Paliden (well god really)
Multi class martial artist (monk) theif detective (rogue) warrior (fighter) inventor (artificer) could almost do it.
Super solder (no class to work with in 5e in 4e warlord in 3.5 warblade/marshal)
Knight and king (nothing in 5e but again warlord or swordsage/marshal maybe some paliden)
Worse then Thor no class could do this
Or more accurately, if Thor, Batman, Cap, Arthur, and Hercules, are the same class, you'dhave to branch them all out in a "skill tree" or Invocation system which would make them no longer simple.
Even 4e with 5 or 6 “subclass” and a half dozen powers per level to pick you couldn’t make them all with 1 class
Either the fighter is no longer simple, you can more classes, or you openly say "You can't play those types of PCs in D&D".
That is what we run into.

Our answer has been sword bard and hexblade but reflavor all the magic or most of the magic as exploits feats and training.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
This again is the fascinating bit that makes me think the person writing it is an ever-DM or never plays wizards in a game setting.

Firstly AC20 is achievable for 1 round and to be honest AC 20 isn’t amazing at anything but low levels. You can expend the next round by using it again but then you’re burning through two slots per round plus the one you used to get the mage armour up. Sure it’s useful for avoiding the occasional hit when you’re at the back somewhere, but wading into combat and soaking damage.I don’t think so. Not to mention that when you do that any ranged attack spells are at disadvantage to hit.

Really? ANY ranged attack spells? Well, be still my beating... oh wait... Hmmm... aren't there only like... six spells other than cantrips that use ranged attacks? And don't most of them... suck?

I've got to be wrong about that, since I don't know what I'm talking about... And I was! There are 10.

Chromatic Orb (1st level, quickly falls off)
Ice Knife (1st level, decent but falls off)
Ray of Sickness (1st level, sucks)
Witch Bolt (1st level, sucks)
Melf's Acid Arrow (2nd level, sucks)
Ray of Enfeeblement (2nd level, sucks)
Scorching Ray (second level, actually decent)
Storm Sphere (4th level, unaffected by your point)
Wall of Light (5th level, unaffected, and kind of sucks)
Crown of Stars (7th level)

So yes, all of those spells out of your hundred something options can't be used in melee... well except the two that can.

Now, as to the 20 AC. Firstly, 20 Ac is still good. It is the best non-magical AC possible without using class abilities. A Rogue for example maxes out at 17 AC. A monk needs to reach incredibly high levels to get 20 AC. It isn't bad. But also, you assume it needs to do more than protect them for a single round. But Wizards can win entire encounters with a single action. They sometimes only NEED a single round. Being able to protect themselves for 1 turn can be massively powerful for them.

Secondly no wizard goes into combat with 1 damage spell and one control spell memorized. They just don’t. Mainly because most spells are circumstantially useful. Fireball does not work when the room you’re in is full of your own people and disintegrate doesn’t work when you’re fighting many creatures. Etc etc. every spell has its own weaknesses and strengths, often because of damage type. So please don’t suggest that wizards have space for all these utilities because they only cast fireball and Magic missile. If they do, they’re clearly leaving the martials to excel in combat and as I said before combat is a huge part of D&D.

I didn't say 1 damage spell and one control spell period. I said one per level. Heck, you literally listed them right here. Magic Missile (1st), Fireball (3rd), Disintegrate (6th). But you are very unlikely to see a wizard take Erupting Earth, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, and Tidal Wave. There is too much overlap and that would be silly of them.

Seriously, pay attention to the argument before you try and disprove it.

Wizards can have a solution to most problems, just not at once and not on the fly. There’s nothing wrong with that. Magic allows characters to fill gaps in the party, that is a good thing. Don’t forget it comes with an opportunity cost though and that’s the trade off.

Six Encounters per day doesn't just refer to fights, it also can refer to challenges. But, let's say during a full day there are 10 problems that need solved.

A 12th level wizard likely has 17 spells prepared, and any of the 28 spells they know that are rituals are instantly available. Let's say six ritual spells. That is 23 spells on the docket. Meaning that they have double the number of potential solutions than problems that can be expected. And we know multiple of those problems are going to be combat. Again, every wizard knows that combat is a thing that is going to happen, and combat encounters make up the majority of the situations.

The One DnD wizard can also modify their spells to make them more versatile, and has a ritual to change their spells for any possible spell they can prepare, effecitvely making all 28 spells available.

Does a wizard always have every single solution to every single problem? No, probably not. But they are probably going to be able to trivialize about 5 of those problems. Maybe more, maybe less, but about half of the problems for the day the wizard is going to be able to, just from statistics, solve.

How many times can a fighter solve a non-combat problem without a roll? How many fights can a fighter win in a single action on a single turn? Zero. None. And any situation where you can say "but a clever fighter could use [X] to do [Y] and therefore solve the problem!" Like using rope to climb a tower.... a wizard can do that too. A clever wizard can do anything a clever fighter can do.

Even if we accept that not every wizard can solve every problem every time... they can solve most problems most of the time, just by knowing what they are getting into. And fighters can't. Barbarians can't. Rogues can't. And this is a major disparity.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Improvise Action.

That isn't guidance. You keep bringing it up but it isn't guidance. Here is the rule, in its entirety.

"Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character's ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise.

When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
"

And all this boils down to... "ask your DM, they decide if you can, and what you will need to roll"

That isn't guidance. At all. Again, I've had DMs say that you can't do things because they are spells. "You can't do this, because that's a 3rd level spell, and those are powerful" is something I have heard. "You can't do this, because that's a feat" is something else. This level of "make things up, and hope the DM says yes and sets a reasonable DC" isn't anything more than cartoon bandage.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Starter Box

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top