D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Look, I loved 4e to death. It's the best balanced version of the game I've ever played. But telling me that my actual experience with a Controller shutting down combats is invalid?

the only person being told there experience is invalid is me. I didn't say they didn't have real good control based daily powers I said big game changers like instant death teleport long distance long term flight shifting planes building planes didn't exists.

I'll happily introduce you to the DM's who had to deal with it on a regular basis, and let you hear their rants, lol.

 

[Tonguez]

The archmages I recall him fighting, at least in the movies, used magic to turn into a snake, and to turn into a man ape, and to open a door.

Conan had cool adventures, but that stuff can all fit at low level.

In the People of the Black Circle Conan is up against the Seers of Yimsha whose apprentices can create balls of mist that explode on contact with metal armour (fireball?).
All Seers are able to use Mesmerism, Read minds and Implant memories/illusions. The more powerful ones can also summon a horse of air (elemental steed?), Kill with a Touch, Kill a whole room with poison fog, explode a door, Steal Souls, Rip out a Heart, shape-change, summon demons, freeze a man with a glance, cause a rock slide, turn into a blood-red mist that can kidnap others, and use spider-climb and teleportation.
The Master of Yimsha also seemed immune to being killed unless their Magic Foci is destroyed - is it a Phylactery?

The Scorcerers Conan faced had some powerful spells, but the casting times do seem longer and the spells generally more subtle than the flash bang of DnD

 

[TheSword]

I mean you made up a house rule restricting a large number of spells that could solve issues with no issue. You then proposed "As GM just take away that magic" as the answer when the problem is WOtC made casters too important.

you said:

by the rules every level a wizard can pick any 2 spells from the game and learn them. Changing that so some wizard spells wizards can't learn is a house rule. I'm not even against it, but it isn't an answer to the rules it is at best a work around of a bad rule.

wait so your wizards is both alive and dead?
this has nothing to do with that thought experiment.

you want to say that if WotC put out a new martial weapon call "Internet Katana" that did 3d12 damage, crit on a 15+ and did x4 damage on a crit... but also cut holes in reality allowing a nubmer of times per day of the prof wielders prof to gate as per the gate spell... that's fine because a DM can say you can't take that weapon even though it has a 250gp cost on it.

the fallacy is that just because 1 wizard somewhere doesn't have the auto win button it is okay for the wizard players to have the option of taking that auto win button.

No houserule. Wizards get two spells known per character level. No more, unless the DM makes them available as treasure or for sale, which is a You problem. If wizard wants to select plane shift there is an opportunity cost to the others. In my experience spellcasters will always want a range of combat spells for each level. There are few choices left for the utility stuff… particularly if there are non spell methods of getting the same result. Why let this spoil the view in the White Room though.

Shrodingers Wizard assumes that every wizard is in a state of spell selection before any encounter so when you open the box the wizard pops out with just the right spells for the circumstances they find themselves in. Wonderful in the White Room.

Why is being able to plane shift to a particular plane a win button? Why is that a satisfying goal? Why on earth would you write an adventure that has that as a goal?

Your plane shifting wizard seems to be skipping several stages… how do they find out where the clerics soul goes to? If they do how do they find them in Hell? If they find them how do they persuade an evil cleric to tell them? How do the denizens react when they’re all in hell. I’m not saying there isn’t an adventure in there… just that the planeshift slice is not an auto-win button. It should be one of many challenges to which there might be many solutions. A good adventure let’s players make choices. By all means make planeshifting easier but there is no reason you need to make the adventure a railroad.

There are very few things that are essential that only magic can do. Magic spells are usually just a short cut. A short cut that is only as necessary as a DM makes it.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

No houserule. Wizards get two spells known per character level.

full stop ANY TWO WIZARD SPELLS... so yes every wizard can choose any two wizard spells (of 1/2 there level round up) each level. so every spell must be considered becasue as of level up any wizard can pick any of them.
Anything other then this is a house rule.

No more, unless the DM makes them available as treasure or for sale.

no less then any 2 they want.

If wizard wants to select plane shift there is an opportunity cost to the others.

but the fact that the wizard can choose it is the problem.

In my experience spellcasters will always want a range of combat spells for each level.

really? At low level (1st) that is always true IME but even as early as 2nd level spells 3rd level caster it is possible to have no combat spells and just upslot your 1st level ones (I mean tasha's is already a save or die)

Why let this spoil the view in the White Room though.

knock it off with the white room... we are talking about wizards in general, heck we were talking of casters in general so how do you feel about clerics and artificers just prepping any spell they want from the whole class list?

Shrodingers Wizard assumes that every wizard is in a state of spell selection before any encounter

that is what you want to discuss then leave me out of it. I never suggested anyone had every spell preped always and forever (I guess at 17th if you prep wish you kind of do)
knock it off I never suggested any such thing.

so when you open the box the wizard pops out with just the right spells for the circumstances they find themselves in. Wonderful in the White Room.

nope not what I said

Why is being able to plane shift to a particular plane a win button?

not a plane any plane any time.

Why is that a satisfying goal? Why on earth would you write an adventure that has that as a goal?

who needs to write it, they can just do it cause they feel like it.

 

[James Gasik]

the only person being told there experience is invalid is me. I didn't say they didn't have real good control based daily powers I said big game changers like instant death teleport long distance long term flight shifting planes building planes didn't exists.

Uh, instant death isn't "control" beyond "the best status condition is death". Obviously, your definition of a "game changer" is different than mine. I consider an encounter power that's an AoE daze + grants vulnerable all (actually a Cleric encounter power!) to be a game changer because it makes enemies go away super fast.

If that's just "business as usual" in your games, and you need the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon before you're impressed by the power of magic (wait, didn't we have that debate in this thread?) I'll refrain from further comment. ^-^

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I have no earthly idea why people keep trying to make fighters into something they’re not instead of playing a subclass, an alternative class, multiclassing or making up their own class.

People are spitballing on making up a new class. Sometimes people say "fixing the Fighter" as shorthand but as I said I've never heard someone say the current Fighter has to go and no one I've seen who wants a mythic martial says it has to be called Fighter.

The thought exercise I like to use is the following:

Imagine someone has never seen an rpg before. This person has watched every fantasy TV and movie in existence and read every fantasy book and is a world class engineer/board game designer.

This person is given the 5e rules without any classes except for the 5e Wizard, and asked to design a few fantasy Martial classes that can't be more versatile and powerful than the Wizard but should be an equal member of the team from levels 1-20.

What kind of classes and abilities do you think we'd get?

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Uh, instant death isn't "control" beyond "the best status condition is death". Obviously, your definition of a "game changer" is different than mine. I consider an encounter power that's an AoE daze + grants vulnerable all (actually a Cleric encounter power!) to be a game changer because it makes enemies go away super fast.

there are also warlord and fighter and rogue powers that do that... some encounter at that (I would not be surprised if someone found something better still)
however no one has to plan around "AoE daze+ vulnerable all until end of my next turn" the way they have to plan around "Can teleport anywhere they know" or "SPeak with dead"

If that's just "business as usual" in your games, and you need the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon before you're impressed by the power of magic (wait, didn't we have that debate in this thread?) I'll refrain from further comment. ^-^

no, I don't need the equivalent of a tack nuke, I need the spell to be so far above and beyond the non caster classes that it makes it feel like they are meant to be in different games (so level 5+ 5e spells)

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Imagine someone has never seen an rpg before. This person has watched every fantasy TV and movie in existence and read every fantasy book and is a world class engineer/board game designer.

This person is given the 5e rules without any classes except for the 5e Wizard, and asked to design a few fantasy Martial classes that can't be more versatile and powerful than the Wizard but should be an equal member of the team from levels 1-20.

What kind of classes and abilities do you think we'd get?

my bet is we get a class I want to play

 

[TheSword]

full stop ANY TWO WIZARD SPELLS... so yes every wizard can choose any two wizard spells (of 1/2 there level round up) each level. so every spell must be considered becasue as of level up any wizard can pick any of them.
Anything other then this is a house rule.

no less then any 2 they want.

but the fact that the wizard can choose it is the problem.

really? At low level (1st) that is always true IME but even as early as 2nd level spells 3rd level caster it is possible to have no combat spells and just upslot your 1st level ones (I mean tasha's is already a save or die)

knock it off with the white room... we are talking about wizards in general, heck we were talking of casters in general so how do you feel about clerics and artificers just prepping any spell they want from the whole class list?

that is what you want to discuss then leave me out of it. I never suggested anyone had every spell preped always and forever (I guess at 17th if you prep wish you kind of do)
knock it off I never suggested any such thing.

nope not what I said

not a plane any plane any time.

who needs to write it, they can just do it cause they feel like it.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. Do you give your wizard PC a rough campaign layout when they are first generated? Otherwise how does a wizard know what spells to select to beat your future unknown challenges? I’m not talking about prep (though that is an entirely different kettle of potatoes) I’m talking about choosing spells.

I’m more than a little amazed that anyone could put the word artificer into a conversation about relative power.

Any plane any time is like saying my character can decide mid adventure to ride to waterdeep. So what? If that’s what the party wants to do then great. If your characters don’t feel like playing the adventure you’ve written then I’m sorry it doesn’t matter whether they have plane shift, a horse, 50 gp to book a bunk on a ship or two feet. It’s all gonna end the same way.

A little exercise to make my point… check out the number of published D&D adventures that involve travelling to other planes (of any editions)… I’d bet all the money in my pockets that every single one of them has a method of getting there that doesn’t involve a PC wizard knowing the right spell.

Transport spells are almost always a waste of a choice because if the journey is worth making you can always make the journey without the teleport/planeshift spell. The only truly useful reason to have those spells is as easy escape methods. But again there are usually multiple ways you can do that as well.

 

[TheSword]

People are spitballing on making up a new class. Sometimes people say "fixing the Fighter" as shorthand but as I said I've never heard someone say the current Fighter has to go and no one I've seen who wants a mythic martial says it has to be called Fighter.

The thought exercise I like to use is the following:

Imagine someone has never seen an rpg before. This person has watched every fantasy TV and movie in existence and read every fantasy book and is a world class engineer/board game designer.

This person is given the 5e rules without any classes except for the 5e Wizard, and asked to design a few fantasy Martial classes that can't be more versatile and powerful than the Wizard but should be an equal member of the team from levels 1-20.

What kind of classes and abilities do you think we'd get?

I reckon John Wick would be in there. And lo the 5e fighter is born.