D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[doctorbadwolf]

No at least in D&D.

It's a long standing trope of D&D that gods and things of divinity can't be killed by mortal nonmagical weapons. This usually is extended to harming them. And it often extends to greater nondivine patron level threats like greater fiends, fey, and other outer entities.

D&D is changing.

Thisis due to the myths where foes need certain levels of magic to be killed.

Which myths are those?

This created the game loop of needing to quest for magic items/spells before adventuring in the monster's home. Extending the campaign.

Removing it is cool but it wont be accepted by the majority of fans. Even newer ones. Nor is it easier to run.

Again, evidence needed.

And it is actually easier to run. From experience.

 

[HammerMan]

No at least in D&D.

We are talking how we want d&d to be and yes

If an avatar of the gif of war is on earth a great warrior should be able to kill him

If the god of war himself is there and that warrior wants the death to be perminent I can see needing something. But in that case a “+3 holy avenger” should not be enough you should need a god slaying took.

It's a long standing trope of D&D that gods and things of divinity can't be killed by mortal nonmagical weapons.

But SHOULD it be?

This usually is extended to harming them. And it often extends to greater nondivine patron level threats like greater fiends, fey, and other outer entities.

For years D&D said you need +2 weapons (or a war horse) to hurt a vampire. Then it became any magic weapon. So let’s not pretend these things didn’t change over the years.
Heck I am pretty sure gods used to need +5 weapons and those don’t exhaust anymore.

Thisis due to the myths where foes need certain levels of magic to be killed.

Only the gif themselves and only to make it stick. Knocking down a near avatar is nothing.

This created the game loop of needing to quest for magic items/spells before adventuring in the monster's home. Extending the campaign.

And everyone loves fetch quests. That is like the main thing I hear how much people love looking for x before they can do y. (That was sarcasm. Every time I hear about it is like it is doing the shopping list)

Removing it is cool but it wont be accepted by the majority of fans. Even newer ones. Nor is it easier to run.

I disagree.

 

[CreamCloud0]

No at least in D&D.

It's a long standing trope of D&D that gods and things of divinity can't be killed by mortal nonmagical weapons. This usually is extended to harming them. And it often extends to greater nondivine patron level threats like greater fiends, fey, and other outer entities.

Thisis due to the myths where foes need certain levels of magic to be killed.

This created the game loop of needing to quest for magic items/spells before adventuring in the monster's home. Extending the campaign.

Removing it is cool but it wont be accepted by the majority of fans. Even newer ones. Nor is it easier to run.

right, but what we're saying here, is that any weapon in the hands of a sufficiently leveled fighter is treated as a magic weapon, not 'becomes a magic weapon' but is just treated as one, the same way a monk's fists are treated as 'magic' weapons because they punch so good a weapon in the hands of a fighter is 'magic' because they're just that skilled with using weapons.

the legend of McBladesworth, the fighter so skilled they could slay an avatar of bane with naught but an ordinary blade, lesser warriors would need a magic weapon but not he!

 

[HammerMan]

, the same way a monk's fists are treated as 'magic' weapons because they punch so good a weapon in the hands of a fighter is 'magic' because they're just that skilled with using weapons.

That is a great example

 

[Minigiant]

Which myths are those?

Almost every myth of deicide is involves the god being killed by another god or a special weapon or item like unicorn, divine sheep, or horned serpent blood.

Again, evidence needed.

And it is actually easier to run. From experience.

This topic.
The classes aren't balanced for a noncombat game and wrong adventuring day. And non-rewards based campaigns requiethe DM knowing how to not railroad and how to run openly run game. A type of game 5e wasn't designed for.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Almost every myth of deicide is involves the god being killed by another god or a special weapon or item like unicorn, divine sheep, or horned serpent blood.

So, not a certain power level, just a macguffin. +3 Longsword doesn’t cut it, if we are going by such myths.

This topic.
The classes aren't balanced for a noncombat game and wrong adventuring day. And non-rewards based campaigns requiethe DM knowing how to not railroad and how to run openly run game. A type of game 5e wasn't designed for.

That isn’t evidence of anything, much less of what you’re claiming. You’re conflating combat oriented gameplay, rewards based gameplay, and treasure as the primary reward.

You can run 5e with only the first, just fine, and I assure you newer, inexperienced, groups are running D&D as a less combat oriented game all over the place. They play to pretend to be their OC (do not steal!), not to get new magic breeches to replace thier old magic breeches.

Further, if you are running the game as a combat oriented rewards based game, you don’t need treasure to do that!

 

[Minigiant]

right, but what we're saying here, is that any weapon in the hands of a sufficiently leveled fighter is treated as a magic weapon, not 'becomes a magic weapon' but is just treated as one, the same way a monk's fists are treated as 'magic' weapons because they punch so good a weapon in the hands of a fighter is 'magic' because they're just that skilled with using weapons.

the legend of McBladesworth, the fighter so skilled they could slay an avatar of bane with naught but an ordinary blade, lesser warriors would need a magic weapon but not he!

but the monk's fists are powered by ki which is supernatural.

So if the fighter's sword are empowered by ki, life force, true magic, or something, sure. It's supernatural.

But if you are only of the people say that the fighter should be able to be purely mundane, not supernatural, and have no magic...and kill the Avatar of Bane or Bane himself with teacups and pencil... The teacup will break on hit.

Now you ccould keep pulling out new teacups Jackie Chan style.

 

[Gammadoodler]

And non-rewards based campaigns requiethe DM knowing how to not railroad and how to run openly run game. A type of game 5e wasn't designed for.

Orrrrr...

We take the premise of the OP seriously and ask what changes can be made to the design of the game that facilitate this kind of play.

"You can't change the design of the game because that's not the way the game was designed to run" is circular reasoning.

 

[Minigiant]

Orrrrr...

We take the premise of the OP seriously and ask what changes can be made to the design of the game that facilitate this kind of play.

"You can't change the design of the game because that's not the way the game was designed to run" is circular reasoning.

I didn't say the game cant be changed. I'm saying you'd have to change a whole lot of the game, rewrite all the books from the ground up, reteach the community, and end up with 6e.

My point is its isn't something simple or easy. Hence the army of Youtubers and Streamers making money on How To videos.

Magic dependency is easy mode and popular. That's why D&D, PF, OSR and 90% of "non-D&D but D&D" games use magic items in base play if they go into the Paragon/3rd/Dragon tier.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I didn't say the game cant be changed. I'm saying you'd have to change a whole lot of the game, rewrite all the books from the ground up, reteach the community, and end up with 6e.

Except you’d need to do none of that.