D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[James Gasik]

The issue is that D&D is based on these outliers.

THE problem is that these outlier spells were originally designed to be randomly got as treasure OR handed out by the DM.

When WOTC let casters choose their treasure but not let martials choose their treasure, that is what broke the game.

There is nothing wrong with Wish and Simulacrum. Casters were not supposed to be guaranteed to get them.

So what, the game is balanced if casters only get the blandest spells? What are the rest of the spells doing in the PHB then? Taunting you like you're a dog and the DM is holding a treat just out of reach, lol?

I think it's funny that the same game that used to have a slot machine that could dispense everything from potions of delusion to artifacts is somehow balanced by just not letting people have certain spells.

 

[HammerMan]

Would a better question not be: Considering the effectiveness of Wall of Force, why don’t nearly all 7th+ level casters have it and use it?

Can you imagine a game where you are a 6th level wizard, and you just went up to 7th. You know r the he main enemy hates most spell casters and have none in their army. Can you imagine that? Now think about how every time you put up a wall of force they have no way to get it down.
I am not saying you have to take it, but think about the ramifications of taking it

 

[HammerMan]

The Disparity was created when:

1. WOTC let Arcane casters choose most of their own spells
2. WOTC made strong Divine spells.
3. WOTC made strong caster magic items enter play earlier

To be less wordy the problem was when they WoTC editions took more and more restrictions off casters.

 

[HammerMan]

Considering most people don't agree with this premise, there is a very-very-very easy house-rule fix - limit spell books. Make sure the caster only has as many spells as the martial has class features. Done.

Oh my.

Can you imagine the outrage a wizard would have at being told they could only learn X number of spells.

Let’s look at a 9th level fighter and compare to a 5th level wizard RAW

Fighter gets a fighting style action surge second wind extra attack and indomitable.

So let’s say that fighting style and extra attack is equal to 3 cantrips maybe 4

Action surge second wind are both short rest so let’s say each is equal to 3 spells. And indomitable 1

So 4 cantrips and 4 spells at 9th level,
Wizard at 5th have 6 spells to start and 2 per level after (assuming no treasure) so 14

Ouch if we say cantrips don’t count and that second attack and fighting style both give +1 spell known instead that’s 6. Maybe a feat would be an extra spell so at 9th that is 7 compaired to a wizard at 5th knowing 14. We got HALF way there.

 

[HammerMan]

There is nothing wrong with Wish and Simulacrum. Casters were not supposed to be guaranteed to get them.

I still don’t understand how they are spells in this edition at all.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I still don’t understand how they are spells in this edition at all.

Makes more sense than 'shoot lots of arrows' or my new favorite, 'own a book'.

 

[HammerMan]

Makes more sense than 'shoot lots of arrows' or my new favorite, 'own a book'.

Oh I HATE the 1d&d attempt to make every class feature a spell.

 

[James Gasik]

About removing restrictions from casters; the reason this occurred wasn't just to make casters more powerful, it was because the game didn't work as advertised. From the very beginnings, Wizards were critical party members that needed to be protected because their power came at a cost. In your classic dungeon experience, warriors and clerics were up in front, and wizards stayed in the back, using spells oil or thrown darts/daggers; the idea was that they wouldn't be at risk very often.

And if they were, there was a plethora of powerful defensive spells they could access.

The 3e design team noted, however, that the rules of D&D didn't actually support this paradigm; casters were very vulnerable. Adventures now took place outside of narrow corridors, a wall of meat standing in the way wasn't always viable, and a thrown rock that does 1 point of damage could prevent wizards from doing anything at all, meaning people would play them less and less. And the game is meant to have a balanced party of warrior/rogue/priest/wizard.

So concentration checks were invented to give the wizard a chance to actually use their spells when bereft of a useful meat shield, since the reality was, there was no mechanic that let a warrior actually prevent the wizard from being targeted. And, in fact, most attempts to give warriors these mechanics have been rejected by a vocal part of the community (see any discussion about marking or taunting effects being "mind control" for details).

Thus we have "tanks" who can't actually tank very well outside of very specific and easily exploitable builds. As a result, casters were made more durable so that less effort needs to be devoted to protecting them so that they can actually contribute to combat.

Rogues benefit from this as well; we went from the Thief being barely more survivable than a Wizard to justify their utility to being able to drop a handful of d6's on enemies in combat.

TLDR; these changes weren't made on a whim with an idea of making casters gods, it's an ongoing evolution of trying to keep classes viable in the face of the actual play pattern not being supported by the rules, and objection to certain attempts to remedy the situation.

 

[James Gasik]

Oh my.

Can you imagine the outrage a wizard would have at being told they could only learn X number of spells.

Let’s look at a 9th level fighter and compare to a 5th level wizard RAW

Fighter gets a fighting style action surge second wind extra attack and indomitable.

So let’s say that fighting style and extra attack is equal to 3 cantrips maybe 4

Action surge second wind are both short rest so let’s say each is equal to 3 spells. And indomitable 1

So 4 cantrips and 4 spells at 9th level,
Wizard at 5th have 6 spells to start and 2 per level after (assuming no treasure) so 14

Ouch if we say cantrips don’t count and that second attack and fighting style both give +1 spell known instead that’s 6. Maybe a feat would be an extra spell so at 9th that is 7 compaired to a wizard at 5th knowing 14. We got HALF way there.

Hm, only being able to know a limited number of spells...oh like a Sorcerer?

 

[Emberashh]

THE problem is that these outlier spells were originally designed to be randomly got as treasure OR handed out by the DM.

Which is a solvable problem.

If Skyrim can get away with lootable spells then so can DND.

There is nothing wrong with Wish and Simulacrum. Casters were not supposed to be guaranteed to get them.

That doesn't not make them bad game design. Spells like those two not only have detrimental effects mechanically but also induce a lot of undue influence on how the game is perceived; ie, that same framing problem I mentioned earlier. Its these spells that keep pushing casters into the erroneous "demigod" status they don't actually occupy, and this complicates the question of what people are going to be okay with by a lot.

A game like DCC only gets away with spells that consequential because 1, every spell is like that, and 2, every spell is as liable to backfire on the caster as it is to go better than intended, even with Spellburn.

5e doesn't have any such drawbacks nor the fundamental design philosophy, and isn't going to get it without moving to 6e.

Either the spells themselves need to be nerfed dramatically or they need to be explicated to DM only content period.