Nerfing Cleric, Hidden Paladin

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

So one of the perennial (pereditional?) complaints around this joint, and in my own experience, is that the cleric class is rather powerful. In response, I'm thinking about removing the ability to turn or rebuke undead from the cleric class abilities. Instead, the ability to rebuke undead will replace the special ability for the Death domain, and turning likewise will become the special ability of the Repose domain (from Faiths & Pantheons ).

In addition, to beef up the paladin a little bit (as recently discussed on the main page of this fine forum), I propose to grant the holy warriors full turning capabilities starting from 1st level, and pushing back the detect evil ability to 4th. I think that this will better emphasize the paladin's divine birthright (IMC, no one chooses to be a paladin - like sorcerer, it's something you is or something you ain't).

Yadda yadda yadda, add some flavor text etc. So what do you fellas think? Too much for the paladin? Too much from the cleric?

Thanks in advance
-Matt

Edit: formating

 

[Cheiromancer]

The domains are too obscure: many, many deities would have neither of them. Heck, a good cleric made from the PHB would not be able to turn undead- that's way too radical. How about this:

1. Clerics with the Good domain can turn undead.

2. Clerics with the Evil domain can rebuke undead.

The domain abilities for good and evil are dull anyway.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

Good point, man. I'd definitely go with that, except I already Rule 0ed the alignment domains to turn outsiders of the opposite alignment ... as you said, they were dull. However, I'll take it under advisement ... if i can come up with sumfin good to give to Law and Chaos domains, I'll prolly change the Good and Evil to turning/rebuking.

Thanks
-Matt

 

[Cheiromancer]

The epic feat "planar turning' gives outsiders turn resistance equal to half their SR. That's a lot! Probably makes the ability useless for low to mid level adventurers.

I assume you base it just on hit dice? If so, how do you determine when an outsider should get turn resistance?

I'll give the Law/Chaos thing some thought, and see what I can come up with.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok. How about this:

1. Good allows clerics to turn undead.

2. Evil allows clerics to rebuke undead.

3. Law/Chaos allows clerics to turn or rebuke undead depending on their alignment. (If good they turn, if evil they rebuke, if neutral they choose. Details may vary from religion to religion- e.g. maybe no cleric of St. Cuthbert can rebuke undead.)

4. If a cleric gets two alignment domains (Law & Good, for instance), they turn as a cleric one level higher. (That's a feat equivalent ability, I think)

This way almost any cleric *could* turn undead (except those belonging to strictly neutral deities), but not all would.

Different kinds of paladins could correspond to the different alignments, and have abilities corresponding to the four domains.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

Not a big fan of epic stuff, so that little tid bit hadn't come to my attention. I've been using straight up hit dice for outsiders, and giving named outsiders (a big thing in my game) turn resistance of a suitable level.

I'm liking the choice of turning for the Law/Chaos domains, and I'll prolly go with that. It's not that I don't want clerics to turn undead, it's just that I want to tone them down a little bit.

Do you think the paladin would be ok with turn undead at 1st, and detect evil at 4th?

Thanks
-Matt

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like that change to Paladins.

It makes sense that you would need a little life experience to discern good and evil. Fighting evil is more clear-cut, especially evil undead.

Good changes. I've already decided that when the campaign starts up we're going to try to the 3.5 rules "as is," but this is a very tempting house rule to adopt.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey, thanks a lot man. Good to know at least one person in this whole place gives a crap.

Best of luck when you start up.
-Matt

 

[The Little Raven]

I use the following changes, myself.

Chaos Domain - Ability to rebuke or command chaotic outsiders. Ability to turn or destroy lawful outsiders.

Death Domain - Ability to rebuke or command undead. Once per day, you can make a greater rebuking attempt at a -4 penalty. If you succeed, all undead that would be normally rebuked are commanded.

Evil Domain - Ability to rebuke or command evil outsiders. Ability to turn or destroy good outsiders.

Good Domain - Ability to rebuke or command good outsiders. Ability to turn or destroy evil outsiders.

Law Domain - Ability to rebuke or command lawful outsiders. Ability to turn or destroy chaotic outsiders.

Magic Domain - In the place of your daily domain spell, you can instead prepare any one spell from another spellcasting class list. You must have a high enough spellcasting ability score of the class in order the spell, and it must be prepared as if it were one level higher (if it is a divine spell) or two levels higher (if it is an arcane spell). This effective level increase does not increase the actual level of the spell. For example, a 10th-level cleric, able to cast 5th-level cleric spells, could prepare a 4th-level paladin spell as if it were a 5th-level spell (but it is treated as a 4th-level spell for all level-dependent effects), if he has a 14 Wisdom (which he should). The same cleric could prepare a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard spell as a 5th-level spell, but only if he has an Intelligence or Charisma of 13.

Sun Domain - Ability to turn or destroy undead. Once per day, you can make a greater turning attempt at a -4 penalty. If you succeed, all undead that would be normally turned are destroyed.

EDIT: Oops, almost forgot about our friend the sorcerer, so I added Charisma to the sentence about the sor/wiz spell.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

That's some hot stuff there Mourn ... I completely forgot about the Sun domain and its hatred of undead. I'm a FR junkie, so I get a little googley-eyed about their domains, and completely forget the basic ones in the PH. sigh

Well, I'm gonna have to put some more thought into this ... it seems kinda unfair to the alignment domains being only able to turn outsiders. Such an ability would be useless until higher levels due to the mega-CR of most of 'em (nevermind the fact that 1st level monkey PCs shouldn't be hobnobbing with anything from another plane - even in the Realms).

Maybe it could be more campaign specific, and you can turn members of a church that is antagonistic to your own, so long as they have the opposite alignment. For example, a LE priest of Bane (Hextor, for you GH dorks) has the Evil domain. This allows him to rebuke/command outsiders with the [evil] subtype, turn/destroy outsiders with the [good] subtype, and turn (but not destroy - we don't need any more annhilation options than we already have) any followers of Torm (Heironeous) so long as they have a n Good alignment.

On second thought, that's a little much, not to mention confusing. Maybe someone can hammer something workable out of that?

Thanks
-Matt