D&D 5E Not Much Ado About Bless

[JiffyPopTart]

Mostly because you have to stay reeeeeeeeallly close to your Paladin to get the bonus. Like, "you're going to get hit by an AoE" close.

Plus, I don't think most people would seriously say saving throw bonuses are broken, since by default, there's probably 4 saving throws each character is bad at by design, and at higher levels, monsters exist that have save DC's so high a natural 20 might not save you.

If a +5 isn't broken then isn't a +1-4 randomized less broken?

 

[Mannahnin]

If a +5 isn't broken then isn't a +1-4 randomized less broken?

+5 (though more commonly +3 or maybe +4) is AWESOME.

...assuming you are able to stay within 10'.

 

[James Gasik]

If a +5 isn't broken then isn't a +1-4 randomized less broken?

Well again, I don't really see the bonus to saves as the issue. Though the Peace Cleric, for example, lets you stay farther apart, which negates a big problem with Paladin auras.

You absolutely need saving throw bonuses at higher levels.

My confusion stemmed from the thought that bounded accuracy means you should accrue attack bonuses much more slowly, and things like Bless giving you a large bonus seemed a little strange.

As many have pointed out, however, enemy AC's are generally low, so the attack bonuses aren't necessary, and they may not necessarily have the impact one might suppose.

Getting +4 to hit on an attack that was going to hit anyways doesn't do you any good. +1 on an attack that will miss (the other extreme) might not do anything. If Bless was an always available bonus, it would turn misses into hits, more often, but it appears that if you are facing appropriate enemies, you likely don't need this benefit.

It's a little strange, to be sure, but that's the game that was made.

 

[Mannahnin]

Getting +4 to hit on an attack that was going to hit anyways doesn't do you any good. +1 on an attack that will miss (the other extreme) might not do anything. If Bless was an always available bonus, it would turn misses into hits, more often, but it appears that if you are facing appropriate enemies, you likely don't need this benefit.

It's a little strange, to be sure, but that's the game that was made.

Personally I'm in the corner that thinks it's quite a good spell, and that the bonuses are meaningful. But that it requiring Concentration is enough of a limiter on it. It is a reasonable point that with the spread of a d20, there is a fair percentage of the time that it actually doesn't make a difference, though.

 

[James Gasik]

Personally I'm in the corner that thinks it's quite a good spell, and that the bonuses are meaningful. But that it requiring Concentration is enough of a limiter on it. It is a reasonable point that with the spread of a d20, there is a fair percentage of the time that it actually doesn't make a difference, though.

I still think it's a good spell, if I play a Cleric I'll cast it, and I'll certainly appreciate having it's benefit. But I can see why a lot of people seem to think it's not that big of a deal.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Well again, I don't really see the bonus to saves as the issue. Though the Peace Cleric, for example, lets you stay farther apart, which negates a big problem with Paladin auras.

You absolutely need saving throw bonuses at higher levels.

My confusion stemmed from the thought that bounded accuracy means you should accrue attack bonuses much more slowly, and things like Bless giving you a large bonus seemed a little strange.

As many have pointed out, however, enemy AC's are generally low, so the attack bonuses aren't necessary, and they may not necessarily have the impact one might suppose.

Getting +4 to hit on an attack that was going to hit anyways doesn't do you any good. +1 on an attack that will miss (the other extreme) might not do anything. If Bless was an always available bonus, it would turn misses into hits, more often, but it appears that if you are facing appropriate enemies, you likely don't need this benefit.

It's a little strange, to be sure, but that's the game that was made.

I think the concept of BA is thrown off moreso by large bonuses (even if less commonly applied) than frequent small bonuses.

Most proud nail topics of 5e are those that either give a bonus out-of-line with other things (like the +10 to stealth PWT gives instead of the expected Advantage it probably should be) or those worded poorly so they can be abused (coffeelocks or Healing Spirirt).

The Peace Domain power being discussed is (as has been mentioned) basically a combo of Bless, Guidance, and Resistance in a single package which IS superior to doing all of those things via normal spellcasting, but it comes at the cost of that being the primary "trick" this class features.

It's no more or less powerful overall in the game than many of the base PHB subclasses.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Maybe you've seen it (CHA 20 Paladin...), but I never have. The highest I've seen in actual play was CHA 16 for +3.

And yes, it was powerful, and frankly lowering it wouldn't bother me a bit.

Otherwise, @James Gasik makes excellent points about it.

The paladins at my table have been more focused on using spells and smiting to get their jobs done so they usually built up CHA before STR.

 

[Nebulous]

I aught to have NPC clerics cast it more though, PCs usually have higher ACs than the monsters.

I had a hag coven once with a bubbling cauldron, and all their minions sipped cups of the broth for a dark blessing, +1d4 no concentration for 1 minute. That was against 10th level PCs.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The paladins at my table have been more focused on using spells and smiting to get their jobs done so they usually built up CHA before STR.

I can see the spells part, but smiting doesn't factor anything about CHA into it, so higher STR (or DEX) would improve the chances of landing a hit and thus allowing you to smite more often as you choose to.

Which is another tweak I would like to see--removing smites and just having smites as spells. THEN perhaps CHA would be more of a factor.

I think another factor is how far you get to play the character. Is CHA 20 obtainable by the time you stop playing the PC? Paladins are such MAD characters, that I just don't see it often. IIRC CHA 16 is the highest I've seen a paladin get in play.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I've played a high charisma paladin in a game (Got up to 22 Cha with a tome by the end), but it was a specific case in that I had gotten a Belt of Giant Strength that freed up ASI's for more charisma. Probably not a great example.