OMG: The Core Cleric

[Elethiomel]

I would just like to point out that, yeah, it does...
From Freedom of Movement
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

I would like to point out that there have been entire threads devoted to this discussion before, and a separate thread is indeed the correct place for a separate discussion.

 

[frankthedm]

In short, the melee cleric can repeatedly buff up the wazoo to make the warriors look like amateurs. Going 2 handed just makes all those strength buffs get *1.5 beefier and the surplus attack mods can convert 2:1 into damage.

Yep. And while dispel magic can help the situation, every encounter should not need to have it.

 

[Veril]

Buff your straight up combat abilities with: Divine Favour, Divine Power, Rightous Might.
Buff your statistics with Bulls Strength, Bears Endurance
Buff your AC with Shield of Faith (10 mins per level)
Buff your Shield AND Armour with Magic Vestment (lasts 1 hour/level).
Buff your Weapon with Greater Magic Weapon (lasts 1 hour/level).

With all that up you will have way better to hit and damage, ac and hitpoints than equivalent fighter.

Because you can self-buff so much, you can afford to spend proportionally more cash on other items as your self buffs can carry you through the day.

Skip a magic shield and use a couple of 3rd level spells to buff your shield. That cash from the shield buys you an extra + on magic armour and a + on your cloak of resistance.

 

[joshjurg]

I play a cleric and even with a +5 init modifier, there is little time to buff. Most combats are quick and deadly - time spent buffing is time lost doing lots of damage already, so my buffs need to pay off in the 2 - 3 rounds we have to kill whatever it is before people start dying.

Frankly, I am surprised that many DM's sit idly by as pc clerics buff themselves. I can understand one or maybe two, but more than that usually draws a lot of enemy attention in my neck of the woods.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Is the cleric better off buffing himself or buffing the party tank?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The argument for such a well-endowed class boils down to the fact that defensive strengths and versatility do not necessarily make for a fun or overly powerful character at the table.

If I burn lots of spells to prepare, I can be 110% as good as an unbuffed Fighter. (And smart Fighters can buff, too.)

If I burn all my top spell slots, I can be 90% as good as a Wizard for a few rounds.

It is simply not a given that either of the above will be practical for a PC in a particular adventure. The best DMs know how to keep the pace of combat in doubt, so neither of the above tactics are necessarily wise. What if you burn your best buffs and the high value targets retreat? What if they counterattack when your buffs have run out?

As Thurbane correctly points out, the overwhelming awesomeness of the Cleric or Druid only appears after a few rounds of buffing. Before that they are both unremarkable.

The deeper issue is that Resource Balance is less important than Dramatic Balance.

Most players do not care about what the sophisticated spreadsheet cooked up by some design wonk says about the normalized effective combat value of a particular build. What they care about is how often everyone at the table says: "Dude! That was a cool move!"

Players do not get frustrated because someone else's PC averages 11.2% more damage per round than their own PC. Players get frustrated or fail to have fun because they have too few special schticks that grab the spotlight when compared to other PCs.

Spreadsheets and average damage are about Resource Balance.

Dramatic Balance is about getting opportunities to wow other players with their schticks.

The Cleric and Druid look great on the spreadsheet. But in real world parties, they tend to be 2nd best at spellcasting, 2nd best at fighting, 2nd best as social interactions, etc, which translate into weak PCs when measured by the Drama factor.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Is the cleric better off buffing himself or buffing the party tank?

The tank, of course.

My spellcasters have a mantra for this issue:

A buffed meatshield is a happy meatshield.
A happy meatshield is a brave meathshield.
A brave meatshield wants to risk their neck to protect me.

The fact is a Cleric can usually do better by laying a single good buff on the Fighter, and following up with tactical spells, then lathering up himself. That is less efficient in time and resources. Time is usually the most precious resource.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

The tank, of course.

My spellcasters have a mantra for this issue:

A buffed meatshield is a happy meatshield.
A happy meatshield is a brave meathshield.
A brave meatshield wants to risk their neck to protect me.

The fact is a Cleric can usually do better by laying a single good buff on the Fighter, and following up with tactical spells, then lathering up himself. That is less efficient in time and resources. Time is usually the most precious resource.

That seems to be what I've noticed. An unbuffed cleric is okay, but nothing great. A buffed cleric is excellent. A cleric buffing a tank, though, is even better.

What you saw about dramatic balance is spot on! The best clerics have to be willing to let other party members do the shining for them, if they want to maximize their potential. It's a relatively thankless role unless you're of a certain mindset.

 

[Nail]

I play a cleric and even with a +5 init modifier, there is little time to buff. Most combats are quick and deadly - time spent buffing is time lost doing lots of damage already, so my buffs need to pay off in the 2 - 3 rounds we have to kill whatever it is before people start dying.

Frankly, I am surprised that many DM's sit idly by as pc clerics buff themselves. I can understand one or maybe two, but more than that usually draws a lot of enemy attention in my neck of the woods.

I'm surprised too. If the cleric has time to buff, so does everyone else.

I've DMed several groups, at many levels. My current game has a Clr 10 in it.

The cleric doesn't usually get time to buff.

 

[Nail]

That seems to be what I've noticed. An unbuffed cleric is okay, but nothing great. A buffed cleric is excellent. A cleric buffing a tank, though, is even better.

What you saw about dramatic balance is spot on! The best clerics have to be willing to let other party members do the shining for them, if they want to maximize their potential. It's a relatively thankless role unless you're of a certain mindset.

When I've *played* a cleric, I've always found buffing the rest of the party is much better than buffing myself. For one thing, it uses actions more effectively: I buff the fighter, then the Ftr goes and smashes things. ...And all of that happens during Round 1, rather than later.