[OOC] The Endless Falls Character Discussion Thread

[Wrahn]

Items that give bonuses to stat other than enhancement are not supported in the item creation rules (like skill bonuses, but that is a different argument)

Righteous Might gives bonuses above and beyond what the size increase gives you, It is infusing you with a bit of divine power. (Look at enlarge person). All the Reduce Person does is lower the size back down. (+2 Size Bonus to physical stats +4 to Nat armor, 3/evil DR for 366,000gp is powerful, but only at this level, otherwise it is too expensive.)

The rules support the creation of permanent magical effects.

Divine Favor at 9th level is 72k, no way in the item creation rules to give a bonus to attack and damage. You example is flawed with the bracers of archery because they have other effects (They give a feat and the bonus to hit and damage is dependent on having the feat independent of the item.)

Sometimes spells are cheaper than an associated item, sometimes it is the only way to get an item to do what you want it to do.

 

[Ferrix]

The bracers of archery are a good guideline for something like this, and it only provides a feat if you don't already have proficiency with the bows, it doesn't grant the bonuses to hit and damage if oyu don't have proficiency. Hell the greater bracers of archery actually cost more than your tabard, and they only provide a +2 to hit and a +1 to damage, no where near the +2 to hit, +2 to saves, +2 to skills and +2 to ability checks that the tabard provides. And it if was actually flawed, I'd actually be erring on the lower side, since an item which restricts a bonus to only a specific situation or use reduces the cost.

And considering the way all bonuses to hit and damage scale exponentially it makes a great deal of sense. Look around on the WotC boards and you'll see the exact same formula for bonuses to hit and damage from items that aren't weapons. Bonus squared times 5000.

Just because the rules support the creation of permanent magical effects does not mean that more concrete examples shouldn't be followed more closely.

Do some reverse engineering and you'll see your tabard of heroism is far superior to any listed item.

 

[Wrahn]

I am well aware of the efficiency of Heroism, why do you think I bought it?

I notice you still paid 40,000 for your Freedom of Movement, despite how it "should" be bought. Before you start in on others for gaining a cost break because of inconsistancies in the rules, perhaps you should make sure that you aren't also doing so as well.

Bracers of Archery are too complicated an item to make that assumption. It sounds reasonable, but before making the assumption you would need to check with the game master.

 

[Ferrix]

However, there is a difference between an already listed item (freedom of movement) and a created item which does far more than items of a similar cost.

And I don't see how you think the bracers of archery are very complex items to deconstruct, considering basically the Wizards boards agree on the very same deconstruction.

And I wouldn't call it efficiency at all.

 

[Wrahn]

However, there is a difference between an already listed item (freedom of movement) and a created item which does far more than items of a similar cost.

Yes, they don't follow the item creation rules which explain the cost of the item in the custom creation, which in fact, is what you are doing. In addition, they explain how continuous effects work and don't explain some of the effects that the item grants.

I interpret the rules as being assumptions you can make without asking the game master. Anything that goes beyond that you need to ask.

And I don't see how you think the bracers of archery are very complex items to deconstruct, considering basically the Wizards boards agree on the very same deconstruction.

Because some guys on a board are doing things one way, does not mean it makes sense.

Let me be specific:

X Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow
X Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency Shortbow
Y +1 Competence Bonus to hit (-Z% only with Martial Weapon Proficiency any bow not granted by the item.)

There are 3 variables there we do not know. That is why it is too hard to figure out what cost they were using. In addition, we don't know what the higher cost was, so we don't know what was multiplied by 1.5.

And I wouldn't call it efficiency at all.

Temper temper

This is why this thread is a bad idea. Surely you don't mean to imply that by following the easy to read and understand rules I that I am cheating. I could draw offense to that.

 

[Ferrix]

*laughs* if you thought that was some semblance of an uncontrolled temper it makes me laugh.

On another note,

The reason for this thread is to not drive Isida insane if comments come up between players about their respective characters. Which is exactly what we're doing, giving commentary on each others characters.

Also, not saying you are cheating, just giving my say that the cost of the tabard of heroism is far too low for the bonuses it provides. Even if I went with the weapon bonus rules (bonus squared x 2000, x2 nonstandard), it's still priced too low.

Also, the stone of perfection also provides a similar cost comparison. As it provides a +1 to hit, unlike the stone of good luck, deducting the cost of the stone of good luck from the stone of perfection leaves 10,000gp, divide by two since it didn't take a slot and there's 5000gp for a +1 to hit.

Cheating to me is like fudging a dice roll or going obviously outside of the system or rules, something I wouldn't expect from anyone who really just recognizes this as the fun game that it is.

 

[Wrahn]

While the comparison of the Luckstone versus the Competence Bonus granted by the Ioun stone seems to support your position, it in fact does not:

(Note these are completely bogus numbers)

$2 +1 to saves
$3 +1 to Skills ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to ability checks ($2 x 1.5)

$8 for Luckstone

$5 +1 to hit
$3 +1 to saves ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to Skills ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to ability checks ($2 x 1.5)

$14 for ioun stone

Subtracting 8 from 14, you come up with the cost of $6 on the +1 to hit, when it is only $5. Unless you make the assumption that they are not following their own rules (which isn't invalid) but then that completely negates the usefulness of the example and you can not reverse engineer it.

And no, I did not think it was uncontrolled anger, but certainly it was a... rude statement which could lead to harsher retaliation.

Further, opening up this can of worms, while saving Isida, invites this confrontation.

 

[Ferrix]

Or it could have been just a light quip which was commenting more upon the usage of the word.

 

[Wrahn]

Or it could have been just a light quip which was commenting more upon the usage of the word.

Regardless, such usage does tend to get people in trouble, even if it wasn't intended. I have gotten into huge arguments over quips if delivered in person would have been funny, but delivered over email seriously offended.

I didn't take offense, hopefully you didn't take offense at what I have said.

I feel using spells to deliniate bonuses not reflected in the rules is a more balanced approach in most cases than buying bonuses. Mostly because of the bounded nature of spells and unbounded nature of the bonuses. Example:

+1 luck, insight, morale, sacred, divine, profane, size, competence, circumstance, synergy, holy, unholy, haste, and enhancement bonus to hit (95,500) for +14 to hit.

As opposed to the +2 size bonus to strength, dexterity and Con for the 366,000 which you can't really push farther. (And yes I appreciate that it was cheesy, the alternative was being Huge and having reduce Person at will, which would have only made Rahveon more powerful, which was not my goal)

 

[Ferrix]

Regardless, such usage does tend to get people in trouble, even if it wasn't intended. I have gotten into huge arguments over quips if delivered in person would have been funny, but delivered over email seriously offended.

I didn't take offense, hopefully you didn't take offense at what I have said.

Agreed. Text forms rarely work to convey meaning properly.

I feel using spells to deliniate bonuses not reflected in the rules is a more balanced approach in most cases than buying bonuses. Mostly because of the bounded nature of spells and unbounded nature of the bonuses. Example:

+1 luck, insight, morale, sacred, divine, profane, size, competence, circumstance, synergy, holy, unholy, haste, and enhancement bonus to hit (95,500) for +14 to hit.

As opposed to the +2 size bonus to strength, dexterity and Con for the 366,000 which you can't really push farther. (And yes I appreciate that it was cheesy, the alternative was being Huge and having reduce Person at will, which would have only made Rahveon more powerful, which was not my goal)

Agreed, I just thought it was really cheesy. Although not as bad as a continuous Mantle of Egregious Might for 360,000gp.

Should have kept that retributive amulet for my defense, or gotten a starmantle cloak to keep up my cheese levels .