Orcs used to be Lawful Evil

[Felon]

But that dosen't change the fact that everybody else is playing them as chaotic evil, and the thought that other poeple are using the bastardized 3e orcs rather than the correct 1e/2e AD&D orcs just makes me so mad! (/sarcasm) I miss the rolleyes smiley.

Nothing to roll eyes about really. Dead's initial post wasn't half the rant that it's being straw-manned to be.

I can understand where you're coming from, dead. This touches on what Monte Cook was posting about here a few days ago: the notion that monsters tend to be created to fill specific niches in the game. Orcs being CE basically just lumps them in with bugbears and gnolls as just another marauding band of brutes. It would be cool for the different humanoid races to have some intrinsic concept that grants them a bit of an established personality that's perpetuated from one D&D campaign to another by tradition, rather than just generic "insert-goon-here" bad guys. That's one reason I'm happy to see WHFRP is making a comeback. People familiar with Warhammer have a firm grasp on how orcs are different from skaven or beastmen.

 

[S'mon]

Heh, yay, someone else who agrees with me that any form of civilisation, wisdom or intelligence doesn't necesarily preclude a chaotic alignment. (Shame that the designer's don't, Chaotics get relatively dumber to Lawful's every edition).

Yeah, one only has to look at the history of renaissance Italy to see plenty of civilised CE at work. Modern Italy is still Chaotic, but more N to G.

The ancient Greeks were widely regarded as the most advanced civilisation of their day, yet were also one of the most Chaotic (in D&D terms) cultures in the world. Chaotics tend to be very creative, willing to try new things, given to improvisation and free thought.

 

[Deadguy]

Yeah, one only has to look at the history of renaissance Italy to see plenty of civilised CE at work. Modern Italy is still Chaotic, but more N to G.

The ancient Greeks were widely regarded as the most advanced civilisation of their day, yet were also one of the most Chaotic (in D&D terms) cultures in the world. Chaotics tend to be very creative, willing to try new things, given to improvisation and free thought.

Of course, today's innovative thinking is tomorrow's oppressive tradition ripe for overthrow!

Chaotics produce societies, naturally. They just tend to be a little more... tumultuous than Lawful societies. Then again, that's the price of freedom to choose.

 

[Hida Bukkorosu]

in my games, halflings have hairy feet and dwarven women have beards.

however, i do use the listed alignments for the evil races, for the most part.

 

[Gez]

I blame Games Workshop. As you should, too. And Blizzard, as well.

Between Warhammer Battles and the more recent, but better spread Warcrafts, the depiction of orcs as green, stupid, wild, barbaric brutes has overwhelmed the fantasy archetypes.

Since everyone (yeah, I know, except you, and also you here) played orcs as chaotic evil barbarians, WotC decided to say, "hey, guess what, we'll change the orcs so they are chaotic evil barbarians, what do you think of that?" and so it was done.

 

[Crass]

But it was a Rancor, Piratecat! It's meant to be WAY too big!

Sorry about that, and thanks for the quick edit.

###

The History of Orcish Alignments:

1974: OD&D - Diaglo came along and decreed "Orcs are Chaotic"
1977: Basic D&D (Holmes Edition) - a simplified version of the AD&D alignment system was used (no Neutrals except TN). "Orcs are Chaotic Evil"
1977: AD&D Monster Manual. "Orcs are Lawful Evil"
1989: AD&D 2E Monstrous Compendium I. "Orcs are Lawful Evil"
2000: D&D 3E: "Orcs are usually Chaotic Evil"
2003: D&D 3.5E: "Orcs are often Chaotic Evil"

Cheers!

Maybe they best show their chaotic tendencies by frequently reverting to a short-lived lawful bent?

Seriously, though, "tradition" has to start somewhere, and with the various alignments Orcs have had over the last three decades, it can be argued equallythat they have been either "traditionally LE" or "traditionally CE". If it's an issue for you as a DM, just say that there are various bands/nations of Orcs, some of which have such-and-such alignment, whilst others have radically different cultural views.

 

[Felon]

I blame Games Workshop. As you should, too. And Blizzard, as well.

Between Warhammer Battles and the more recent, but better spread Warcrafts, the depiction of orcs as green, stupid, wild, barbaric brutes has overwhelmed the fantasy archetypes.

Since everyone (yeah, I know, except you, and also you here) played orcs as chaotic evil barbarians, WotC decided to say, "hey, guess what, we'll change the orcs so they are chaotic evil barbarians, what do you think of that?" and so it was done.

Hmm. That's actually a good point. Some of the folks I play with looked at the D&D minis and said "wait, these can't be orcs--they're not green". Heck, one of my friends even painted his green.

 

[Zappo]

Hehe, this thread reminds me... I just started reading Reaper Man by Terry Pratchett, and right at the beginning there is a scene with a bunch of mayflies talking. The bugs live just barely one day, and the old ones were telling to the young ones "back in my hours, we had a proper yellow sun, not this kind of red thing here. You could see fields all around you for miles. And I remember there was a cow, which stayed here for, like, 40 or 50 minutes!" "what is a cow?" "You see!? The mayflies these hours, they don't know anything about our past. If the morals were respected, I'd bet we'd still have a proper sun..."

 

[Li Shenron]

I have both LE and CE Orcs, depending on the circumstances and of course on the individuals. At the same time I have evil but also neutral Orcs.

I think I am following the MM guidelines after all:

Always means that there could be 1 in a million that is different. If any, because IMC if a devil is not LE it's not a devil but something else. That 1 in a million can be utter 0 if I wish.

Usually is the most vague one, I'd say the majority is of that alignment, and every other alignment is possible.

Often is just a hint, and CE for Orcs is the same as LG for Dwarves or CG for Elves.

 

[Cerubus Dark]

Well this means that the MM should have 2 ORC entries now.

One being the "Wild or Barbaric" Orc as listed in the MM.

One Being the Orc Warrior, a being of Usualy LE alignment Favord Class as Fighter, some Clerics (25% in a group of 10 or more) unlike our Barbaric friends these Orcs are never encountered in groups smaller than a squad of 5 scouts (FTR1) Str15 Dex13 Wis10 Int10 Con13 Cha9 blah blah blah...

Hmm, Me thinks I will edit my copy of the SRD tonight and add this entry.