(OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

This is part of the problem. You as well as the Jedi council treat their organisation as a military one.

Rules are more important than people.
Tradition more important than people.
Order more important than people.

I think they're more a strict order of monks than a military organization. And I think you're attributing their error to me. I don't necessarily agree with their way of handling these issues. In fact, that's what my whole post about arrogance was getting at. They ARE going about things the wrong way, and it's one of the things that will contribute to their downfall. I don't think Palpatine will be able to completely get rid of the Jedi without at least the tacit approval of the public, which means he's going to have to discredit them, which they've made a LOT easier by isolating themselves from the public and putting rules ahead of people, both inside and outside the organization.

Personally, I thought Qui-Gon Jinn was the Jedi who really had things right. He always put people ahead of the rules, which is why he was on the outs with the Council. I have no doubt that he would have gone back for Shmi at some point, the will of the Council be damned. His philosophy is superior IMO, but I do think it's much harder to practice with an entire organization. In my experience, once everyone decides they deserve individual attention and treatment, the organization spends all its time and energy dealing with internal issues where individuals start putting ALL their concerns (both important and petty) ahead of the good of the group. Trust me, I've seen it happen, and it isn't pretty. It's possible the Jedi would be above that kind of selfishness, but I think their rules came from a desire to take away the sense of self in order to avoid selfishness. Selfishness, after all, seems to be the hot track to the Dark Side.

I also agree with you about Obi-Wan and Padme's treatment of Anakin for the most part, though I imagine Obi-Wan simply had to deal with that kind of thing so often that he was simply losing patience. Kind of an exasperated father thing, which makes his statement a little more understandable. After all, Anakin DOES have his place. The system exists to teach him, and if he's constantly jumping fences and ignoring his teacher, then I can see why Obi-Wan would be a little harsh with him.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I get the impression that Obi-Wan was compensating for how Qui-Gon had taught him. Obi-Wan didnt agree with his masters style so more than anything he felt he was going to do things by the book.

Unfortuantely in a one on one situation of mentor and student you cannot act the way Obi-Wan did. On top of it you have to realize that coming down on Anakin the way Obi-Wan did and in front of the other people had to make the situation worse. It told everyone in the room that Anakin was a petulent child and Padme at the very least took that thought to heart in how she treated Anakin.

I also agree with you about Obi-Wan and Padme's treatment of Anakin for the most part, though I imagine Obi-Wan simply had to deal with that kind of thing so often that he was simply losing patience. Kind of an exasperated father thing, which makes his statement a little more understandable. After all, Anakin DOES have his place. The system exists to teach him, and if he's constantly jumping fences and ignoring his teacher, then I can see why Obi-Wan would be a little harsh with him.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I get the impression that Obi-Wan was compensating for how Qui-Gon had taught him. Obi-Wan didnt agree with his masters style so more than anything he felt he was going to do things by the book.

Unfortuantely in a one on one situation of mentor and student you cannot act the way Obi-Wan did. On top of it you have to realize that coming down on Anakin the way Obi-Wan did and in front of the other people had to make the situation worse. It told everyone in the room that Anakin was a petulent child and Padme at the very least took that thought to heart in how she treated Anakin.

Agreed. I'm not saying that it was the right time and place for censuring Anakin, just that I can understand why Obi-Wan did it. We don't make our best decisions when we're exasperated with our children/students/etc.

Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Possibly, but I bet he would have been much less of one under say Qui-Gon as his mentor.

Anakin was also right in what he said. I am sure that The Chancellor selected them so that they would start looking into the attacks and track them back. He needed the clone army to be found by the Jedi.

Agreed. I'm not saying that it was the right time and place for censuring Anakin, just that I can understand why Obi-Wan did it. We don't make our best decisions when we're exasperated with our children/students/etc.

Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Possibly, but I bet he would have been much less of one under say Qui-Gon as his mentor.

Anakin was also right in what he said. I am sure that The Chancellor selected them so that they would start looking into the attacks and track them back. He needed the clone army to be found by the Jedi.

Perhaps, but it's also an arrogant presumption that the Jedi are above such mundane activities as being her bodyguard. THAT was a slap in the face for Padme's chief of security, AND it was a lot for an apprentice to be reading into his orders.

I have little doubt that Anakin would have become a better person under Qui-Gon's tutelage, but he would be just as much, if not more, of a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi. Which could have led to his downfall anyway. Just a bit differently.

 

[Rel]

Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?

I think there's a pretty good point here. Consider that with the exception of Anakin (and later, Luke) that all the Jedi were taken from their families at a very young age. The relationship between master and apprentice necessarily needs to be parental in nature. In other words, the master will inevitably say to the padawan at some point, "Because I said so, that's why!"

The kind of rigid discipline the Jedi require is perfectly logical when you look at the damage a rogue Jedi can do, not just to other non-Jedi, but to the credibility of the entire organization.

Also on the matter of Anakin as a petulant child, consider that he has only had ten years of training. By the time most Jedi have had that much training, they are only about half his age. In other words, I think it is very plausable that Anakin is at that point in his Jedi career where he knows just enough to be dangerous. Couple that with the fact that he has a ton of force potential and I can easily understand Obi-Wan keeping him on a short leash.

In hindsight, this is of course a bad idea because it is a contributory factor to Anakin going Dark Side later. It also doesn't help that (unbeknownst to the Jedi) they have someone (Palpatine) actively acting to subvert the discipline they are attempting to instill. But as has been amply pointed out, the Jedi are rather arrogant, and rightly so. I mean, when you have a system that has worked well for the last thousand generations you tend to not want to change it.

Success breeds complacency.

 

[Fenros]

Rel wrote:

Anyhow, let me just clarify one thing about my speculations in the post above: I know that what Fenros says is correct. Yoda in ESB was not "crazy from guilt". He was a bit silly because it put him in the role of an unlikely hero and tossed the whole "never judge a book by its cover" moral into the story. I understand the causality link that I'm proposing does not exist.

But still it is fun to speculate and I suppose that it directly stems from my roleplaying experience. As a GM, I often throw disperate plots at the party early in a campaign. Sometimes I like to go back and reexamine these plots and see if they somehow fit together in a way that suggests a larger story arc. I've gotten pretty good at filling in the cracks between these plots and explaining away any inconsistencies. So it is only natural that I'm trying to do the same thing with Star Wars. All in all, a fairly fun, if useless exercise.

Naw, its not useless. Exercises like that make for sharpening skills a good writer should have. Sorrry if I misunderstood your exercise.

Rel wrote:

One thing that bothered me about that exchange was that when Yoda asserted that Luke was too rash and impatient to begin the training, Obi-Wan replied with something along the lines of "Was I any different when you started training me?"

Actually I think it went like:

YODA: (to Luke) "You are reckless."
OBI-WAN: "Was I any different."

Suggesting that Obi-Wan was wreckless as a young Jedi or young Padawan. Maybe he was before the start of Ep1. But since it was mentioned in Empire you suspect it would've been shown more clearly in the first trilogy. *Shrug*

The only reckless thing I ever saw Obi-Wan do was jump through a window to grab a flying droid in Ep2. The one instance is hardly enough to portray his character as being reckless.

DocMoriartty wrote:

The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was.

Agreed.


Canis wrote:

First, bending the rules for one individual (no matter how unique) is always a bad precedent in a group dependent upon rules and order. It fosters resentment, for one thing. And the beneficiary gets more and more full of himself as time goes by. If anything, they already set Anakin apart too much.

That's a good point too. However I don't think that line of thought should apply with the Jedi here.

Under optimum conditions, no exceptions should be made. I agree. Assuming that the theory poster here have that Jedi are taken at an early age to they only have mentors and not traditional parents. But the case of Anakin came to the Jedi under different circumstances. One that involved his mother too.

I don't think making an exception here would have fostered any resentment from other Jedi. The others would've known that his case is different. If any Jedi had resentment, then perhaps they aren't the type that should be Jedi to begin with.

Relocating his mother wouldn't have disrupted his training. If anything, it would've improved it. He wouldn't be tempted to break mission parameters to go rescue her or anything.

They already made an exception anyways by letting Anakin in at his age, its obvious that the Mother must come with that exception. I think its just more poor writing from Lucas.

DocMoriartty wrote:

Anakin went for selfish reasons and even willingly let people down and put Padme at risk. She is still technically being hunted. Luke on the other hand was acting in a manner full of self sacrifice. I very much doubt that the dark side has much of a chance grabbing hold of someone who is willing to do so much selflessly

I don't think Yoda was trying to stop Luke from going to Bespin because he thought he was going for selfish reasons. Yoda didn't want him to go because he knew it must be some sort of trap. That more than likely its Vadar behind his friend's suffering. And that if he went he would encounter Vader. Yoda was afraid Vader would tempt Luke into the dark side. And he was right.

Vader tempted Luke to hatred and anger. But thank goodness Yoda's fears were avoided. Luke remained strong and survived the encounter. Yoda just didn't want Luke taking the risk, considering he still had much to learn.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Maybe, or maybe not. Anakin has been a Jedi Padawan for 10 years. What if Obi-Wan and him in 10 years have never once been a bodyguard for someone. Its no longer arrogant assumption. It is now a statement of fact. If Jedi are never used as bodyguard then it does raise an eyebrow when they are suddenly used in that role.

Perhaps, but it's also an arrogant presumption that the Jedi are above such mundane activities as being her bodyguard. THAT was a slap in the face for Padme's chief of security, AND it was a lot for an apprentice to be reading into his orders.

I have little doubt that Anakin would have become a better person under Qui-Gon's tutelage, but he would be just as much, if not more, of a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi. Which could have led to his downfall anyway. Just a bit differently.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The only reckless thing I ever saw Obi-Wan do was jump through a window to grab a flying droid in Ep2. The one instance is hardly enough to portray his character as being reckless.

Really?

Attacking Darth Maul on his own after Qui-Gon was killed could qualify, since he had to know Maul was the better swordsman.

More importantly, though, being reckless doesn't have to involve physical risk. I think swearing to take Anakin as his apprentice, despite the fact that he was still a Padawan himself, and despite the fact that the Council--and he himself, for that matter--had doubts about the boy... I think that qualifies.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

This does lead to the fact that through the force Yoda knew DArth Vader was on Bespin and did nothing to warn him. Luke may have changed his actions if Yoda had simply said:

"Go you should not, the slayer of all the Jedi is at Bespin. Against Darth Vader no chance you will have at this time."

Then again I still think Luke's going was the best thing that could hav happened. It gave him the training and outlook that made him strong enough to survive in ROTJ.

It would though have been nice if at some point Yoda had warned Luke about Force Lightning. The Skywalkers just don't have much good luck when it comes into play.

I don't think Yoda was trying to stop Luke from going to Bespin because he thought he was going for selfish reasons. Yoda didn't want him to go because he knew it must be some sort of trap. That more than likely its Vadar behind his friend's suffering. And that if he went he would encounter Vader. Yoda was afraid Vader would tempt Luke into the dark side. And he was right.

Vader tempted Luke to hatred and anger. But thank goodness Yoda's fears were avoided. Luke remained strong and survived the encounter. Yoda just didn't want Luke taking the risk, considering he still had much to learn. [/B]