Parrying Dagger Question

[Holy Bovine]

So I have a player who wants to use a heavy shield in one hand and a parrying dagger in the other to get the +1 AC bonus for the defensive property of the dagger. Can this be done? A shield is , technically, a melee weapon (or at least can be used as such irl) but I can find no reference to using one as a weapon in 4E. Has anyone else run into this? Personally I think the guy is an idiot to so hamstring his character to doing a paltry 1d4 damage but if he wants to and it is allowed under the rules...

 

[James McMurray]

A shield is not a melee weapon in D&D. You can use it as an improvised weapon, but it doesn't count for the purposes of having a defensive weapon in the other hand.

 

[Beckett]

I don't think shields are technically weapons. Spiked shields, sure, but I don't think you can get a +2 Flaming Shield.

On the other hand, he's spending a feat to get +1 AC and a d4 weapon. If he wants a character that sucks that much, I guess I'd allow it. I do recall the dagger-wielding rogue from one of my games getting frustrated with his weapon choice because his encounter powers were rarely meaningful- it's hard to get excited about 3D4.

 

[Holy Bovine]

A shield is not a melee weapon in D&D. You can use it as an improvised weapon, but it doesn't count for the purposes of having a defensive weapon in the other hand.

But if you can use it as an improvised weapon would it, by definition, be a melee weapon? I'm not even sure a shield can be used this way in D&D but if you have a page reference I'd sure appreciate it.

I don't think shields are technically weapons. Spiked shields, sure, but I don't think you can get a +2 Flaming Shield.

Not in D&D, no, but in real life warriors would use their shields to attack with when possible. Not that that really has much bearing on the game but there it is.

On the other hand, he's spending a feat to get +1 AC and a d4 weapon. If he wants a character that sucks that much, I guess I'd allow it. I do recall the dagger-wielding rogue from one of my games getting frustrated with his weapon choice because his encounter powers were rarely meaningful- it's hard to get excited about 3D4.

Yeah - I'm kind of looking for a way to not have his character suck within the rules. He's a paladin btw and is having a heck of a time figuring out his 'role'. I just know he will be frustrated in short order when I have creatures completely ignore his dagger wielding pally.

 

[Gargoyle]

Yeah - I'm kind of looking for a way to not have his character suck within the rules. He's a paladin btw and is having a heck of a time figuring out his 'role'. I just know he will be frustrated in short order when I have creatures completely ignore his dagger wielding pally.

I agree. Do him a favor and rule that shields are not weapons and encourage him to use something that does more damage, perhaps a weapon wielded by his deity.

If he wants more AC, then make up a Shield Mastery feat that gives him an additional +1 AC with the heavy shield. Not overpowered by any means and suitable for a paladin. Or suggest he take the Durable feat for a couple more healing surges.

I'm all for bending rules to let players play the characters they envision, but it sound like he's worried about his AC, not his character's concept.

 

[James McMurray]

But if you can use it as an improvised weapon would it, by definition, be a melee weapon? I'm not even sure a shield can be used this way in D&D but if you have a page reference I'd sure appreciate it.

You can use anything as an improvised weapon. Most things will suck at it.

If you include "improvised weapon" in the things that let you trigger the defensive property, then you've invalidated the "must have another weapon" clause, because anything (or even nothing) in your other hand counts as an improvised weapon.

PHB pg. 215: Improvised weapons are objects you pick up to hit someone with. If you pick up a shield to hit someone with it, it's an improvised weapon. If you pick up a feather to hit someone with, it's an improvised weapon.

 

[Mort_Q]

Spiked shields, sure, but I don't think you can get a +2 Flaming Shield.

You can enchant a Spiked Shield as a weapon or as a shield, not both. So technically, you can have a +2 Flaming Spiked Shield.

 

[Trooper Maximus]

If you pick up a feather to hit someone with, it's an improvised weapon.

I can do 1D4 with a feather?! Sign me up I know what my next Rogue is using.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

You can use anything as an improvised weapon. Most things will suck at it.

[...]

If you pick up a feather to hit someone with, it's an improvised weapon.

Actually, you cant. An improvised one handed weapon weighs 1-5 lb. An improvised two handed weapon weighs 6-12 lb. Interesting enough, a spiked shield weighs 7 lb, a light shield weighs 6, and a heavy shield weighs 10. Therefor no shield qualifies as an improvised one handed weapon and you cannot use a shield and a parrying dagger and benefit from the defensive property.

 

[baberg]

Actually, you cant. An improvised one handed weapon weighs 1-5 lb. An improvised two handed weapon weighs 6-12 lb. Interesting enough, a spiked shield weighs 7 lb, a light shield weighs 6, and a heavy shield weighs 10. Therefor no shield qualifies as an improvised one handed weapon and you cannot use a shield and a parrying dagger and benefit from the defensive property.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have a winner. Shields can be improvised weapons, but only two-handed with the "standard" shields that you can buy.

FYI, PHB p219 is where he got the weight for one-handed and two-handed improvised weapons, and p214 for the weight of a shield.