Piracy of "The Valley of Frozen Tears"

[marketingman]

Cergorach,
First on an earlier post about the Silven Trumpeter it states on the site it is free content. Home page Scroll down I believe it is on the bottom left. trust me.

What you call bad press i call protecting ones rights agianst abuse by others. Others who have not bought the product.

1) The technology exists who said I am not equiped to find the culprit.
2) I am talking full on investigative mode. Court cases are won or lost on the evidence
that you are able to gather and present. After all OJ got off of the murser raap but had to pay for killing his wife and friend.. OF course French law works backward guilty until you present the evidence to clear yourself.

Aldi's has use plenty of thieves into oblivion just not the one caught stealing crackers and ceral. I believe it was 18 months ago that they go a judgement against a former CFO for 1.2 mill several low level manager for embezzelment. Aldis even sued Wal Mart concerning the prices of their grocery items.

The rapist and the pirate both pay for their crimes just one is physically locked up while the other is in a financil box.

I am not talking full on frontal assualt against people who chose to share with in their group after all we pass books around the table. Dragon Magazine found out early on that each dragon magaxzine is read by 3.4 people. that is why a magazine that only has a print run of 55K per month can tote the numbers of several million readers.

I am sorry i did not get the e-amil that you are the final arbitrator of what is fair. So Five Hundred is fair no problem but should it not be for each company that the guy has pirated from all of the PDF companies he has taken from. So it is ok with you if this guy goes unpunishedands it is ok for moberon to work on a new widget for his system and then have the same thing happen again and again until he is bleed dry of ideas. and then case away, that is OK by you. But it is not OK by me

If a person crosses a line in business I believe in the all out full on no holds barred throw down. I believe in the saying that my lawyer and I use. " We did not go to some fancy law school, the school we don't get injuction, we break into your house break up your chipindale furnature and roost you dog on it."

I like to see the money go to the people who put in the effort to bring and create enjoyment. O h raddling is a word like rithmatic and rassling are words here in the states. Of course you know our site is available in six languages.

 

[Cergorach]

Cergorach,
First on an earlier post about the Silven Trumpeter it states on the site it is free content. Home page Scroll down I believe it is on the bottom left. trust me.

Well, i can't find it...

What you call bad press i call protecting ones rights agianst abuse by others. Others who have not bought the product.

A large portion of the world which also includes a percentage of your customers disagrees. What you call 'protecting' others call an 'overreaction'. You might not disagree, but that doesn't change how customers feel and react.

1) The technology exists who said I am not equiped to find the culprit.

I've done 'some' research in the past and i'd like to think that i'm keeping up with what's possible and what isn't. I kind of have to in my line of business (my job requires me to know computers), although i'm certainly not a professional programmer or a hacker. I do understand how computers work, what is transmitted, how that can be altered, etc.

The real problem is that it isn't really impossible to find the culprit, but if you do, your breaking dozens of laws in multiple countries. Or your stuck requesting information from dozens of different server admins from dozens of different countries, that have made it their business to provide unanymous proxies. So legally your not going anywhere.

There's of course the option that the person posted the file with his home e-mail address, from home, has an own website and lists his home address on the site. He's got a signpost on the door that reads "I'm 733T! All your files belong to us! Pirates inside!". Even then there's an enourmous amount of time, money, effort, and still the possibility of failure involved.

2) I am talking full on investigative mode. Court cases are won or lost on the evidence that you are able to gather and present. After all OJ got off of the murser raap but had to pay for killing his wife and friend.. OF course French law works backward guilty until you present the evidence to clear yourself.

You know how much money your talking about here, any clue at all? No probably not. If you did, i'm certain that you would know that Moberon couldn't afford it.

Aldi's has use plenty of thieves into oblivion just not the one caught stealing crackers and ceral. I believe it was 18 months ago that they go a judgement against a former CFO for 1.2 mill several low level manager for embezzelment. Aldis even sued Wal Mart concerning the prices of their grocery items.

That's 1.2 million stolen, removed, can't be spent by someone else. 'pirating' involves the copying of data, there's no difinitive proof that it involves loss of income. Big difference imho.

The rapist and the pirate both pay for their crimes just one is physically locked up while the other is in a financil box.

8 years in the can vs. a lifetime of hardship... Hmm... What to choose... Can!

I am sorry i did not get the e-amil that you are the final arbitrator of what is fair. So Five Hundred is fair no problem but should it not be for each company that the guy has pirated from all of the PDF companies he has taken from. So it is ok with you if this guy goes unpunishedands it is ok for moberon to work on a new widget for his system and then have the same thing happen again and again until he is bleed dry of ideas. and then case away, that is OK by you. But it is not OK by me

Wasn't this thread (or this entire forum) a matter of opinion?

Moberon (or any other creative person that publishes) will either continue to produce products or he won't, if 'piracy' has any impact on this, he didn't think it through in the first place.

Is that line of reasoning not 'ok' by you? Who cares! No one beside myself really cares about my line of reasoning, some might agree with it, others don't.

The world is accepting 'piracy' more and more, i think that it's got it's up and down sides. Too many people now think that everything is free, especially younger people, i've heard too many youths shout "I'M NOT PAYING FOR ANYTHING I CAN GET FOR FREE! (More booz in the pub!)". That's not a good attitude in my opinion. On the other hand, the social changes a break down of copyrights/patents might entail is appealing. Sure, some people will loose their jobs (atleast the people at the patent bureau ;-) but other jobs will be created, they always do (industrial revelution anyone?). Just look at some of the larger computer companies, more and more of them are concentrating on services instead of more traditional computer related fields.

But let's not forget that Moberon is perfectly fine with downloading anime fansubs, which is also illegal (but not action is really taken against it). But when it happens to his own material, he considers sueing someone into financial ruin...

If a person crosses a line in business I believe in the all out full on no holds barred throw down. I believe in the saying that my lawyer and I use. " We did not go to some fancy law school, the school we don't get injuction, we break into your house break up your chipindale furnature and roost you dog on it."

*whoosh* totally over my head... ;-)

I like to see the money go to the people who put in the effort to bring and create enjoyment. O h raddling is a word like rithmatic and rassling are words here in the states. Of course you know our site is available in six languages.

And non of those is dutch, dammit! ;-)
I do to btw. Money going to the people who create the stuff i enjoy, that is.

Fictional:
Let's say a kid has only 5 bucks, he has the option of buying Moberon's pdf or a D&D Esd from SVGames. He likes both, but has only money to buy one, it seems that the D&D Esd will get a bit more use then The Valley of Frozen Tears. Which one should he buy?
1.) The D&D Esd.
2.) The Valley of Frozen Tears.
3.) Buy option 1, download option 2.
4.) Buy option 2, download option 1.
5.) Screw them all, download them both, the $5 should go to boozzz.

 

[Arnwyn]

You know the saying "When a billion people say a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing."? Actually that isn't true, wheter something is stupid... is decided by societies concensus. So if a billion people say a stupid thing it kind of stops being a stupid thing.

[Hijack]
Nope. Can't agree with you there. Such a blatantly simplistic (and incorrect) statement ignores a large number of variables - notably basic human psychology.

 

[Prest0]

No, you took it out of context, i was making the point that not everything that's illegal is wrong. (snip)

...and that is based on what the people who live in that place believe and think.

Ah, another moral relativist. Sorry, I don't buy it. There are certain universal truths we all know deep down in our guts. It doesn't matter what country you live in, you know that murder, rape, torture, slavery, adultry, theft, etc. are wrong. They are times and places when people (even large groups of people) do these things anyway, but that doesn't make those things any less wrong. It just means that people are at times stupid, weak beings in need of a moral support (in the literal sense).

While it's true that not everything that's illegal is "wrong", stealing (copyright infringement) IS wrong. And even those things that are illegal but not morally wrong are in place for the safety and protection of individuals or society. Running a stoplight may not be morally wrong, but it's illegal because its designed to insure the safety of everyone on the road.

Let me leave you with a final thought. If everyone stole bread to feed their siblings, how long before the baker loses so much money he is unable to pay rent? How long before RPG publishers decide there's not enough bread?

 

[Cergorach]

[Hijack]
Nope. Can't agree with you there. Such a blatantly simplistic (and incorrect) statement ignores a large number of variables - notably basic human psychology.

And... What's the significance of that (according to you)?

 

[Cergorach]

Ah, another moral relativist. Sorry, I don't buy it. There are certain universal truths we all know deep down in our guts. It doesn't matter what country you live in, you know that murder, rape, torture, slavery, adultry, theft, etc. are wrong. They are times and places when people (even large groups of people) do these things anyway, but that doesn't make those things any less wrong. It just means that people are at times stupid, weak beings in need of a moral support (in the literal sense).

There was a time when slavery was a perfectly legal and accepted practice, at least at that point in time. Societies change, people change, relegions change, governments change, and with that the moral codes of what's right and what's wrong changes. There was a time that there was no such thing as copyright and it was perfectly legal and encouraged to copy a book, hell, the clergy saw it as god's work (copying books that is). That situation changed because society changed and laws where invented to spread knowledge and creativity, what's to say that those same laws will not change again? I would say that in 3rd world countries it would be a very good thing to do away with western societies copyright/patent laws, it would mean cheaper production of goods etc.

While it's true that not everything that's illegal is "wrong", stealing (copyright infringement) IS wrong. And even those things that are illegal but not morally wrong are in place for the safety and protection of individuals or society. Running a stoplight may not be morally wrong, but it's illegal because its designed to insure the safety of everyone on the road.

Is it not morally wrong to run a red light? I would think so, because by not sticking to the law you might actually kill someone...

Let me leave you with a final thought. If everyone stole bread to feed their siblings, how long before the baker loses so much money he is unable to pay rent? How long before RPG publishers decide there's not enough bread?

If everyone stole bread for thei siblings because they can't afford to buy bread, then there's something seriously wrong with society, especially when the bakker can still produce bread...

How come companies like Malhavoc, Green Ronin, or Mongoose are prospering? While their books are more available then Moberon's?

 

[cybermonkey]

It would seem to me (and I'm not a lawyer) that the plantiff has the burden of proof in these cases. The plantiff has to prove that the "pirate" had intended to purchase the product in the first place, but didn't and thus resulted in a loss of revenue. All the defense has to claim is that the sole purpose of downloading the files was to "sample" the product.

Now, if the pirate in question downloads the product and turns around to sell it. Then, the plaintiff can meet it's burden by showing that selling of the product through a non-sanctioned third party causes harm, both financially and by reputation.

The issue that we should be tackling is not the harms of piracy, but how do we stop it. In today's morally-bankrupted society, punishment does very little to deter some crimes. So, instead of "sticking it to them," how about we find some means to prevent our products from being pirated?

 

[Greatwyrm]

It would seem to me (and I'm not a lawyer) that the plantiff has the burden of proof in these cases. The plantiff has to prove that the "pirate" had intended to purchase the product in the first place, but didn't and thus resulted in a loss of revenue. All the defense has to claim is that the sole purpose of downloading the files was to "sample" the product.

Well, it's a good thing you're not a lawyer. I'm not either, but let me share some info I picked up in a Business Law class.

Surprisingly, the first thing they taught us in Business Law was how the criminal law system works. Now, what does that tell you? Anyway, intent rarely matters in a criminal case, unless you're talking about stuff like hate crimes or the difference between murder and manslaughter. If you have somebody else's stuff in your posession, and you didn't pay for it or receive it as a gift, it's stolen property. It really is that simple.

Second, you do not have to show any loss of revenue to make a civil case for infringement of intellectual property stick. If I go around painting dozens of murals of Mickey Mouse absolutely free for people, Disney's lawyers will come smack me around (and the judge would hold me while they hit me). They own the rights to Mickey and I don't.

While both of these points are pretty solid, it still doesn't change my opinion that it's just not worth it to pursue a case like this. As good as I'm sure the products that Ancient Awakenings produces are, I'll bet they're still a small operation selling pdfs. If you just want to sit down with a lawyer who works with copyrights and IP, you'll be lucky if you get a full hour for $150. That's before any paperwork is filed, before a subpoena is issued, and before you see a judge. Maybe you can get the lawyer to throw in an angry letter to the guy for free, but you're probably looking at another 50 - 100 bucks. Two hundred dollars and likely little or no resolution to the problem.

Compare that to the break-even point for a pdf project. Unless you're Monte Cook, you're probably not drawing enough sales to cover an expense like that. I agree that it stinks, but that's just how it adds up. It will take someone with money to burn, like Microsoft or Adobe, to get real protections and real penalties for pirates. Once something like that happens, this conversation will go a lot differently. Unfortunately, this just isn't a battle a little guy can afford to wage.

 

[Psionicist]

Copying, not stealing. The only thing the creator of the work will lose is a potential customer. The creator still owns the original work and can still sell it. If someone took your computer on the other hand, that would be stealing because it is a physical object that cannot be duplicated/copied, it is stealing because you (the rightful owner) would end up with nothing.

How do you prove you lose sales because of piracy anyway? Most pirates are those who wouldn't buy your product in the first place, they only download it to spread the material.

I am a programmer (and everything I code I release for free) and trust me when I say this: You cannot stop piracy. You can probably stop it in a large scale (stop Joe Clueless from accessing Kazaa etc), but there will still be encrypted VPN:s, Freenet, private FTP:s etc. Heck, the hottest topic these days among programmers interested in security is creating encrypted, anonymous, decentralized file sharing networks. They are being coded right now.

That, and everything Cergorach has already said.

(And no, I don't download D&D books. I do however have a few copies of books my DM own, so I don't have to borrow them all the time).

 

[Prest0]

There was a time when slavery was a perfectly legal and accepted practice, at least at that point in time. Societies change, people change, relegions change, governments change, and with that the moral codes of what's right and what's wrong changes.

If you reread my post, you'll see I anticipated your response.

"They are times and places when people (even large groups of people) do these things anyway, but that doesn't make those things any less wrong. It just means that people are at times stupid, weak beings in need of a moral support (in the literal sense)."

Is it not morally wrong to run a red light? I would think so, because by not sticking to the law you might actually kill someone...

So what's your point? Are you arguing in my favor now?

If everyone stole bread for thei siblings because they can't afford to buy bread, then there's something seriously wrong with society

Possibly so, but again, how is this salient to the discussion?

How come companies like Malhavoc, Green Ronin, or Mongoose are prospering? While their books are more available then Moberon's?

I'm in no better position to knowledgably discuss the financial status of those companies than you are.