Polymorph Self Nerfed?

[Tar-Edhel]

All snakes can "constrict". Not all snakes can constrict(ex). Don't confuse the game term with the dictionary definition.

In DnD some snakes can constrict(ex), and some can't. Any snake (including a polymorphed PC) can wrap itself around an opponent and squeeze. It's called a "grapple".
(I'm sure RL snakes that kill their prey by choking it have a number of evolutionary adaptations to help them get and maintain a strong grip on their target in an efficient and safe [to the snake] manner. These adaptations will probably not be shared by snakes that rely solely on poison.)

Exactly my point. All snakes constrict (since constricting is simply wrapping yourself around something and squeeze. I, too, would rule it as a grapple) and some do have special adaptations (or simply the sheer strength) to add additional damage (Constrict (Ex)).

So let me rephrase this: Can a snake constrict (Ex) IRL? Yes? So does a polymorphed PC

But anyway, do you think that allowing Constrict (Ex) to a polymorph PC would unbalance your game? Would allowing blindsight to a bat PC be that much of a detriment to your game?

I don't think so. That is why I allow any abilities that an actual animal can have. Plain and simple.

I simply don't feel the urge nor have the will to split hairs on what I consider details (IMHO).

4 pages of (sometimes heated) arguments on the existence or not of natural abilities, designer intent and Skip's real influence in the grand DND scheme is more detrimental to my game (since we would have those same arguments around the gaming table) than allowing a PC to burn a 4th level slot to turn himself into a bat to see in the dark.

 

[WizarDru]

Since I wrote it, I don't have to "interpret" it. The term "form" is from the spell description, and does not imply preservation of mass or unaltered bones.

I'm not sure what the word 'form' has to do with the meaning of your paragraph, per se, but if that works for you, so be it. Maybe I'm missing some distinction you're trying to make. As it is, it sounds like you're saying that a bat gains it's ability to see from something magical or extremely unusual, that is somehow inherently more difficult for someone using the spell to adapt to than breathing through gills, flying with wings, or any number of (to me) equally esoteric and alien abilities from other forms.

Personally, I just think it rather silly that if I polymorph into a giant scorpion, that I can't actually use my giant claws and increased strength to actually grab someone. YMMV.

 

[bret]

Snakes, why did it have to be snakes?

Just a side note on the whole snake thing. As I understand it, a snake either constricts it's prey or poisons it. Although there is probably some type that does both, the general rule is that they are built for one or the other.

Edit: Grammer

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm not exactly sure Lord P., but I believe the term "word of art" means a word that has special meaning within a certain context. Such as "Extraordinary Ability." This means an ability that is beyond the mundane obviously, but within the context of 3e rules it has additional meaning as well.

Thanks, Maddman75! I learned something new today.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Please tell me of a special ability with the Ex, Su or Sp descriptors that doesn't appear in the SA or SQ lines. If there are none, then that's strong evidence that these descriptors are only meant to be applied to abilities that are SAs or SQs. Conversely, if there are no SAs or SQs that are NOT Ex, Su or Sp, that's strong evidence that EVERY SA or SQ is one of Ex, Su or Sp. Which leaves "natural abilities" out in the cold.

I'm going to go to the Hydra for these, MM p121-123.

"Three special kinds of hydras... possess special abilities that are described in the text on the following page."

The Lernean Hydra's regrowing of heads, and immunity to most attacks, have no Ex, Su, or Sp descriptors.

The Pyro and Cryohydras' breath weapons have no Ex, Su, or Sp descriptors.

As special abilities not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp, do these not fit the definition of Natural Abilities?

The Pyro and Cryohydras' elemental subtypes - Ex abilities - don't show up in stat blocks, although one assumes that if their stat blocks were written up in full, they would appear as Special Qualities.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

The Lernean Hydra's regrowing of heads, and immunity to most attacks, have no Ex, Su, or Sp descriptors.

The Pyro and Cryohydras' breath weapons have no Ex, Su, or Sp descriptors.

As special abilities not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp, do these not fit the definition of Natural Abilities?

Now if THIS is the logical conclusion of treating natural abilities as the complement of {Ex, Su, Sp}, I rest my case.

The Pyro and Cryohydras' elemental subtypes - Ex abilities - don't show up in stat blocks, although one assumes that if their stat blocks were written up in full, they would appear as Special Qualities.

Elemental subtypes are Ex.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Elemental subtypes are Ex.

Yup, and they're listed as Ex. But they don't appear in the stat block. You asked for an example of an Ex ability that didn't appear in the SA or SQ section of the stat block.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Yup, and they're listed as Ex. But they don't appear in the stat block. You asked for an example of an Ex ability that didn't appear in the SA or SQ section of the stat block.

There is no statblock for a pyro- or cryohydra, so there is no place for an Ex ability not to appear.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no statblock for a pyro- or cryohydra, so there is no place for an Ex ability not to appear.

Which you'll note, I pointed out in my original post.

Nevertheless. The Hydra still contains examples of special abilities with no descriptor, and descriptors with no stat block entry... which were the things you challenged us to find...

The lack of a stat block is irrelevant to the first, and the second still fulfils the requirements of the challenge...

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Which you'll note, I pointed out in my original post.

So the elemental qualities of the pyro- and cryohydra are just noise.

Nevertheless. The Hydra still contains examples of special abilities with no descriptor, and descriptors with no stat block entry... which were the things you challenged us to find...

Now if THIS is the logical conclusion of treating natural abilities as the complement of {Ex, Su, Sp}, I rest my case.