D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[Mistwell]

Look up spell durations.
And try common sense.

I think it is completely rational and common sense to try and figure out if these temporary hit points were intended to disappear when the spell ends and written that way, or if the designers missed this one and should have specified that. They do mess up sometimes.

 

[SkidAce]

They gang up on one PC with pack tactics, the roar will be virtually useless and attacking again will be done 90+% of the time as the point is to defeat the PC, not scare them. With the duration it has, it is laughable IMO.

They gang up on one PC because they scared some of the other members of the party away? Sounds legit for a low level monster pack tactic.

 

[Guest 7037866]

They gang up on one PC because they scared some of the other members of the party away? Sounds legit for a low level monster pack tactic.

Or, they just gang up on one PC using both attacks instead of wasting one to possible give a different target disadvantage on attacks. Since each lion has pack tactics, it is very likely to hit and deal damage. 3 or 4 lions do that and the PC is down if not dead.

Now, as I said above, if the roar either A) gave the condition for more than one round or B) affected multiple targets, it might be worth it.

Otherwise, it is not worthwhile and just attacking is more useful 9 out of 10 times.

 

[FrogReaver]

I concur (after reviewing all the spells).

As @FrogReaver noted, Heroism does not specify the temp HP end (or vanish) with the end of the spell, you simply don't get any more at the start of your next turn once the spell end.

Polymorph, Shapechange, and True Polymorph all grant temp HP as part of casting the spell. In each of the other three cases, the spells simply state they end early if the target creature has no temp HP left.

However, gaining the temp HP from these spells IS an effect of the spell. And as others have pointed out, under the Concentration rules in the Rules Glossary:

Sounds like you are changing your position which is fine, but I’ve got a few questions.

See I agree up through this part of your post. Gaining temp hp is an effect of the spell.

The question is, what does the effect of gain temp hp entail? Does it mean that once when the spell says you gain temp hp you do so? And if so didn’t that effect end the moment you cast the spell? You gained the temp hp, that particular spell effect over, no?

If concentration is lost, the effects of these spels is lost, that includes the gaining of these temp HP. In a similar fashion, if any of these spells were dispelled, the temp HP would also go away. They are granted by the magic of the spell currently in effect due to the concentration requirement.

I agree that if concentration is lost the spell effects are lost. But it’s not clear why that includes the one time effect of gaining temp hp that already ended the moment the spell was cast.

1. In all these spells (except heroism) Gaining temp hp happens once. It’s not an ongoing or reoccurring effect.

2. aura of vitality provides an ongoing effect that grants you the ability to instantly heal another creature. When the spell ends the healing doesn’t go away even though it was a concentration spell effect, what goes away is the ability to bonus action heal others. Queue the temp hp is not healing rebuttals. And of course it’s not, but the point is that not all effects granted by a magical concentration spell stop when the spell ends. And so why not the gaining of temp hp as well?

While adding text to these spells would help clarify this, at this point I am convinced it is uncessary. It wasn't until I actually reviewed the section on spells on Effects (below) that the definitive connection between the two solidified my position.

That is my position at this point. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not debating it further. I think my position at this point is clear.

All good.

EDIT: I'll add quickly that in all other cases the spells aren't concentration, so there is no ending to the effects other than being dispelled if the spells have a duration. If not, they're instantaneous and only a counterspell will stop them. In other words, those spells' effect can't end due to lose of concentration because they are not concentration spells.

Can a concentration spell include both instantaneous effects as well as ongoing ones. Say deal damage once on initial cast and restrain the creature (concentration or passes ongoing save)? Stuff like that. And if so why is the one time gaining of temp hp being treated as an ongoing effect instead of an instantaneous one, even for concentration spells?

 

[James Gasik]

Can a concentration spell include both instantaneous effects as well as ongoing ones. Say deal damage once on initial cast and restrain the creature (concentration or passes ongoing save)? Stuff like that. And if so why is the one time gaining of temp hp being treated as an ongoing effect instead of an instantaneous one, even for concentration spells?

Yes. Look at Haste:

"When the spell ends, the target is Incapacitated and has a Speed of 0 until the end of its next turn, as a wave of lethargy washes over it."

That is absolutely an ongoing effect, and it doesn't end when concentration is lost, but a round afterwards. It's a negative effect, but I don't see why that would make a difference.

 

[tomedunn]

I've seen a few people try to connect damage and healing from concentration spells to temporary hit points, so I'd like to point out that even if we were to give them the same treatment as temporary hit points, by claiming they go away when concentration ends, it wouldn't actually do anything mechanically.

From the "Hit Points" section in chapter 1 of the D&D Free Rules (2024) it states

Whenever you take damage, subtract it from your Hit Points. Hit Point loss has no effect on your capabilities until you reach 0 Hit Points.

Note that your hit points are reduced when you take damage, not when you have damage and not when you lose damage. The only interaction damage has with your hit points occurs when you take it.

The "Healing" section from that same chapter is presented similarly. It states

When you receive healing, add the restored Hit Points to your current Hit Points.

Just like with damage, the only interaction healing has with your hit points occurs when you receive it. There is no rule that says anything happens to your hit points by having healing, and there's no rule that says anything happens when you lose healing.

The only interaction either of these things have with a creature's hit points occurs when they receive them. Meaning, even if we assume healing and damage are effects of a concentration spell that end when the caster loses concentration, nothing would happen to raise or lower an affected creature's hit points.

And just to drive this point home, this distinction does not apply to temporary hit points. The "Temporary Hit Points" section in chapter 1 has a rule that depends on whether or not a character has temporary hit points,

If you have Temporary Hit Points and take damage, those points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your Hit Points.

I hope this clears up this particular issue in relation to the discussion in this thread.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think anyone in this thread is intentionally arguing for a player to exploit the RAW of polymorph though, more as an exercise in RAW interpretation and finding a RAW loophole that definitely needs to be addressed to avoid confusion and issues in the future.

Oh, I will: if the loophole is there and not closed then I say exploit the hell out of it.

The designers should be catching these things, but they're not perfect; so the next line of defense is the DM. If the DM, on being made aware of a problem like this, doesn't close the loophole that to me makes it open season to exploit it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've seen a few people try to connect damage and healing from concentration spells to temporary hit points, so I'd like to point out that even if we were to give them the same treatment as temporary hit points, by claiming they go away when concentration ends, it wouldn't actually do anything mechanically.

From the "Hit Points" section in chapter 1 of the D&D Free Rules (2024) it states

Note that your hit points are reduced when you take damage, not when you have damage and not when you lose damage. The only interaction damage has with your hit points occurs when you take it.

The "Healing" section from that same chapter is presented similarly. It states

Just like with damage, the only interaction healing has with your hit points occurs when you receive it. There is no rule that says anything happens to your hit points by having healing, and there's no rule that says anything happens when you lose healing.

The only interaction either of these things have with a creature's hit points occurs when they receive them. Meaning, even if we assume healing and damage are effects of a concentration spell that end when the caster loses concentration, nothing would happen to raise or lower an affected creature's hit points.

And just to drive this point home, this distinction does not apply to temporary hit points. The "Temporary Hit Points" section in chapter 1 has a rule that depends on whether or not a character has temporary hit points,


I hope this clears up this particular issue in relation to the discussion in this thread.

Not sure I’m following why that means it wouldn’t do anything mechanically?

Also, wouldn’t the same logic apply to temp hp?

 

[Selas]

Not sure I’m following why that means it wouldn’t do anything mechanically?

Also, wouldn’t the same logic apply to temp hp?

No, because THP is not actual HP nor is it Healing, according to the THP rules: "Temporary Hit Points can’t be added to your Hit Points, healing can’t restore them, and receiving Temporary Hit Points doesn’t count as healing."

And yes, I had to point it out because it is the reason why they don't work like actual healing. By your logic, damage and healing would revert when a concentration spell ends, yet they don't because these are permanent mechanics governed by their own rules.

Concentration is a sustaining mechanic for continuous spells (aka maintaining the spell effects), and THP is granted by these 3 spells, but as part of shape shifting into another form. And no, its is not one time gain, as you can change multiple times with Shape Change and your THP would change to the new form each time (you can't with the other two).

The purpose of these 3 spells is NOT to give THP, but to shape shift someone into another creature. THP is an effect of this, not a separate effect. This has been pointed out before by others.

At this point though, it is clear that you are entrenched in your position and no amount of argument is going to change it. Like the other person said, if you want to exploit rules interactions to your benefit you can do so, but don't be surprised if the DM shoots you down. If you're the DM, well it's your table, but don't be surprised if your session gets derailed because of players exploits

 

[tomedunn]

Also, wouldn’t the same logic apply to temp hp?

No, it wouldn't. The logic for healing and damage is based on the general rules for those mechanics. Temporary Hit Points have different general rules, which means the logic for them is different. That difference results in a different outcome for what happens when they end, as covered in my original post.