Reach Weapons - a thought...

[Water Bob]

Just thinking outloud here...

In 3.x, if a character enters his enemy's square, then the enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on him.

For example, if a fighter and an orc are in melee, and the fighter moves into the orc's square (say...to grapple the orc), then the orc gets an Attack of Opportunity on the fighter.

Now, I was thinking about this, and I was thinking about reach weapons. In RL, weapons with reach have a real advantage in holding the enemy at bay--at least for a while. In D&D, reach weapons have never really received a good treatment--at least, I don't think so.

What do you think of this?

With a reach weapon, 5 feet around the character is considered the character's same "square". So, if a fighter using a longsword comes into melee with an orc using a polearm, the orc's reach is still 10', per normal rules. If the fighter closes to melee range with his longsword, though, the orc gets an attack of opportunity on the fighter just as if the fighter had moved into his own square.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Sekhmet]

It is fairly well agreed upon that reach weapons are superior in every sense to nonreach weapons, and that the best weapon (at least, in core) is the spiked chain. In my opinion, the next best is the Halberd.

Seriously, tripping, disarming, reach, and usable in close quarters, Finesse applies but it isn't a light weapon, so Power Attack works as if it were any old two handed weapon. How could anyone say the spiked chain isn't the best?

Reach weapons don't need to be altered in any way. They represent exactly how real life reach weapons have worked (although, no one has ever used the spiked chain in a serious combat for any length of time).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In 3E, you provoke for LEAVING a threatened square, not entering one.

 

[HoboGod]

If the fighter closes to melee range with his longsword, though, the orc gets an attack of opportunity on the fighter just as if the fighter had moved into his own square.

I'm not sure I follow you on this one. That's how it works already. Moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity unless taking a 5ft step. I tend to believe that 5ft steps get rather silly and generally negate the benefits of a reach weapon after the first round of combat, but the first round should be 80% of the battle anyway, so I look past it.

 

[Greenfield]

Water Bob, you're starting from a flawed premise.

I can enter an enemy square as often as I like without provoking an AoO. I can pass a reach weapon as often as I like without provoking an AoO.

All I have to do is use the 5 foot step rule.

It isn't entering then enemy square that provokes in the cases you mentioned. It's the attempted grapple, bull rush, unarmed strike etc. without the appropriate feat.

Moving into a square doesn't provoke. As someone else pointed out, it's leaving the threatened square that provokes, whether advancing or retreating. The exceptions are, the 5 foot step and the withdraw maneuver.

To look at your example in real life terms, try facing a trained boxer or wrestler. With the boxer it's almost impossible for an untrained fighter to move into strike range without meeting a face full of fist. The trained opponent, who in D&D terms is considered armed, gets an AoO on the untrained fighter who isn't. (Note that in many states professional boxers' hands are considered "deadly weapons" if they use them against an untrained opponent.)

Try closing with the trained wrestler. When an untrained fighter tries this, they'll find themselves in exactly the wrong side of that grappling hold. Why? Same as the boxer scenario, the trained fighter can intercept your move.

That's how it works in D&D too, though the demarkation between trained and untrained is more abrupt.

But it has nothing to do with the Reach rules.

 

[Grogg of the North]

The only thing I've ever had against reach weapons is that I never found a way either through classes or feats to be so awesome at using my spear that I can't also threaten adjacent squares in some way, even if I do take penalties.

I honestly have no idea how that would affect game balance. I just think it would be neat to do something like this:

Sucker Punch - Samurai Fight Scene [HD] - YouTube

 

[Water Bob]

In 3E, you provoke for LEAVING a threatened square, not entering one.

It's the same thing. You're leaving his threatened area into his personal square, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity--which is why AoO's apply to grapples, unarmed attacks, and Bull Rushes.

But, you're right. I shouldn't express it the way I did even though the result is the same.

I'm not sure I follow you on this one. That's how it works already. Moving out of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity unless taking a 5ft step.

Crap! After saying what I just said above, I see that you've just given me my own comments!

(Big Light Goes Off Above My Head)

You're right, of course.

Never mind this thread.

I said I was just thinking, right!

 

[Greenfield]

The only thing I've ever had against reach weapons is that I never found a way either through classes or feats to be so awesome at using my spear that I can't also threaten adjacent squares in some way, even if I do take penalties.

I honestly have no idea how that would affect game balance. I just think it would be neat to do something like this:

Sucker Punch - Samurai Fight Scene [HD] - YouTube

I've heard mention of a Choke Up maneuver or feat that allows you to attack at less than full reach with a reach weapon.

Then there's always the option of armor spikes. They threaten even when your main reach weapon doesn't.

 

[Loonook]

The only thing I've ever had against reach weapons is that I never found a way either through classes or feats to be so awesome at using my spear that I can't also threaten adjacent squares in some way, even if I do take penalties.

I honestly have no idea how that would affect game balance. I just think it would be neat to do something like this:

Sucker Punch - Samurai Fight Scene [HD] - YouTube

An Iron Golem (perhaps Advanced) with a reach weapon has Knockback/Awesome Blow, Short Haft, and associated feats. The female fighter has ranks in Tumble and the Dodge/Mobility tree.

So yes, yes you can threaten adjacent squares

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Empath Negative]

Short haft I believe, in phb ii. Its pretty awesome for melee combatants.