D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Dungeonosophy]

It would be cheaper to not sell those legacy products. [...] At best you might get the product pulled.

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

These are small words. Because they play on the fear of "fandom" that our toys will be taken from us if we don't behave like nice wittle customers.

Do you honestly think that because I'm suggesting a path of amends for "red orcs" and "yellow orcs", that WotC will never publish settings, guides, or supplements which have "cultural reference"?

 

[Zardnaar]

What, are you a prophet? You're speaking pretty authoritatively for someone who's not a representative of Wizards of the Coast.

Or are you really just saying that you personally wish for no amends to be made?

I'm no prophet it's common sense.

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that actually entails.

They produce what 5 books a year? At its height TSR was cranking out 60 iirc.

Movie studios with vastly more amounts of money don't do that and it's cultural vandalism as well.

No prophecy there's to much material to cover for any reasonable sized team to do.

Heading into an edition cycle or 5.5 type.

It's no a reasonable expectation, the original authors are dead or long forgotten their work most likely.

At best they pull the material maybe an apology. They can't/won't wheel out the original authors.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

When I look at modern day TV and cartoons, I see a lot more representation than there used to be. That comes from creators and producers being pushed by organizations to improve representation.

Furthermore, look at what Wizards of the Coast is actually doing. Their work is full of diverse skin tones, body types, and now even abilities. They are doing the hard work, because of people like @Dungeonosophy who use evidence-based approaches to guide progress.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

Umm, this "doomsaying" claim is completely unfounded. WotC has been pretty good so far at attempting to make amends, starting with their Diversity and Dragons statement early last year. They've also been hiring more sensitivity readers and cultural consultants recently. It seems like they are continuing to try and be as inclusive as possible, even with the PR controversy in the past couple of years.

So, no, this is complete nonsense.

 

[Zardnaar]

These are small words. Because they play on the fear of "fandom" that our toys will be taken from us if we don't behave like nice wittle customers.

Do you honestly think that because I'm suggesting a path of amends for "red orcs" and "yellow orcs", that WotC will never publish settings, guides, or supplements which have "cultural reference"?

Going forward sure. Pay attention to what I'm saying it's not reasonable/viable or possible to do what that specific poster asked.

 

[MGibster]

You've answered your own question here. The "why" is so that they don't publish similar products (and run into this issue again) in the future.

That doesn't make any sense. If your end goal is that they won't publish a similar product, well, mission accomplished, because whether or not they speak with someone else they're not going to publish something similar. So when you say the next step is to go talk to marginalized people about a product that's nearly 35 years old, what are you trying to accomplish? (A product most of them likely has no idea exists in the first place.) Or do you mean this is something they should do going forward?

 

[CleverNickName]

That doesn't make any sense. If your end goal is that they won't publish a similar product, well, mission accomplished, because whether or not they speak with someone else they're not going to publish something similar. So when you say the next step is to go talk to marginalized people about a product that's nearly 35 years old, what are you trying to accomplish? (A product most of them likely has no idea exists in the first place.) Or do you mean this is something they should do going forward?

Honestly? Truthfully?

Yes, I hope they do publish materials that are based on real-world history, mythologies, and legend. Because like I said earlier in another post upstream, there isn't anything wrong with doing so (as long as it is done with care and respect.) I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't do it; I'm suggesting they should do better.

I would love to see a rewrite of GAZ10 that was as respectfully and tastefully written as others in the series. They've demonstrated that they can do it; this isn't a reinvention of the wheel.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that actually entails.

Hi, I'm not happy with how you slipped in something I've never suggested. I never suggested in this thread, or in the preceding thread at the Mystara Piazza, that WotC "redo" the product. That's dishonest of you to attribute that to me. And then to argue against something you yourself invented. And then accuse me of "cultural vandalism" for something I never said.

It's no a reasonable expectation, the original authors are dead or long forgotten their work most likely.

At best they pull the material maybe an apology. They can't/won't wheel out the original authors.

Only a few weeks ago, I spoke with Bruce Heard, the author of GAZ10. I've talked with him and other TSR designers many times. And Bruce, despite the seriously passé and distasteful elements in that 1988 work, is actually a great guy. And definitely alive.

WotC wheeled out R.A. Salvatore to make a beautiful amendatory statement on the drow.

 

[dragoner]

Pretty sure WOTC is not going to stop making D&D anytime soon.

Per topic, my wife is half Apache from her Father, half Ukrainian from her Mother, and 100% Mexican from Anglo culture. Shortly after getting married, I pitched a game book that said "Americans hate Mexicans" simply because it was not a conversation I wanted to have, ever, not over a game; and it wasn't like I was going to play it any time soon. People can deal with these things how they want to, all other people want is a little respect, and it's the dignified way to act anyways, so there is the positive aspect there as well.

 

[MGibster]

Yes, I hope they do publish materials that are based on real-world history, mythologies, and legend. Because like I said earlier in another post upstream, there isn't anything wrong with doing so (as long as it is done with care and respect.) You're suggesting that they shouldn't do it, and I'm suggesting they should do better.

I think you have me confused with someone else as I never suggested such a thing.

I would love to see a rewrite of GAZ10 that was as respectfully and tastefully written as others in the series. They've demonstrated that they can do it; this isn't a reinvention of the wheel.

I mean, I've got no dog in this particular fight as I didn't even know this product existed until this thread. This ain't exactly Ravenloft, and I don't know if a lot of people are pining for a new version of it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I pitched a game book that said "Americans hate Mexicans" simply because it was not a conversation I wanted to have, ever, not over a game

Man what the heck game was that?

 

[Malmuria]

Wotc is hiring. They could start by hiring bipoc game designers.

 

[Mordhau]

Yes, GAZ10 is one of those "somes." I've always thought though, that the disclaimer is rather lame corporate-speak. It's only slightly better than nothing. It basically means:

"We're not going to bother looking at the specifics of what's problematic in any of these legacy publications. And we're not going to admit or apologize for any specific thing. It's enough of a symbolic gesture that we put a nicely-worded generic disclaimer on everything pre-5E. We say that's enough. These depictions are wrong, but we're going to continue to rake in $10 for each PDF sale! In the end, it's the bottom line that we care about."

Do I have a specific suggestion for how WotC/Hasbro could make amends?

Well, ideally each legacy product which has major "ethnic, racial, or gender prejudice" would be looked at by a team of professional cultural consultants. And their findings would be published in a DRAGON+ article. And WotC would apologize for specific portrayals.

It would be such a healing gesture to bring in the original authors (in this case, Bruce Heard), and editors and artists, and let them apologize on DRAGON+, and say some really beautiful, conciliatory words which are vetted by the cultural amends team. Like R.A. Salvatore's recent words on problematic aspects of the drow, which I think was a beautiful gesture.

The DRAGON+ article would then be forever linked to the DriveThruRPG product page. It would be a truly healing gesture.

Like WotC said: "Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible."

Then teach us WotC! Teach us and explain exactly where you (including TSR) failed to practice the principle that "diversity is strength" in the past. And in the present: because GAZ10 and other problematic products are still "D&D products." How are you going to make GAZ10 "as welcoming and inclusive as possible"? "As possible" is a tall order.

WotC's disclaimer ends with the statement:
"This part of our work will never end"

Okay, get crackin'! You said this part of your work will never end. So put together a standing team of cultural consultants, and start the amends process. This would be an ongoing DRAGON+ feature. It'll take years, and that's okay. Because this work will never end!

Besides educating folks through the amendatory DRAGON+ articles, I'd also suggest that a large portion of proceeds of problematic legacy PDFs be perpetually donated to an appropriate charity. In the case of GAZ10, I'd personally suggest the Lakota Waldorf School...they could use the money. Yet I'm sure there are plenty of worthy Indigenous American and East Asian charities which WotC could identify, even in the Renton-Seattle area. However, the more specific the better. For example, GAZ10 contains distasteful content specifically related to the Vodun, Lakota, Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney), Kanienʼkehá꞉ka (Mohawk), Mongolian, Tibetan, Chinese, and Bhutanese cultures, and perhaps others. It would not be hard for WotC's cultural amends team to do some web research and find a charity related to each of those cultures. And sort of divvy up the PDF "amends royalties" based on approximately how many distasteful jabs each culture received. (For example, there are only three sentences which buffoonishly refer to Vodun spirituality, but many paragraphs which refer to "Red Orcs.")

I realize that admitting anything would be a courageous opening of a can of worms. Corporations are not always known for their courage. And I realize that it costs money to have cultural consultants comb through legacy books. But sometimes ya gotta put your money where your mouth is.

Sounds complicated.

In the old days you'd just wear a hair shirt and go on pilgrimage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hi, I'm not happy with how you slipped in something I've never suggested. I never suggested in this thread, or in the preceding thread in the Mystara Piazza, that WotC "redo" the product. That's dishonest of you to attribute that to me. And then to argue against something you yourself invented. And then accuse me of "cultural vandalism" for something I never said.



Only a few weeks ago, I spoke with Bruce Heard, the author of GAZ10. I've talked with him and other TSR designers many times. And Bruce, despite the seriously passé and distasteful elements in that 1988 work, is actually a great guy. And definitely alive.

WotC wheeled out R.A. Salvatore to make a beautiful amendatory statement on the drow.

If the author's want to do that I have no objections.

WotC can't force them to do that and there's numerous other products that need a tidy up.

Do better going forward absolutely.

 

[Krachek]

Umm, this "doomsaying" claim is completely unfounded. WotC has been pretty good so far at attempting to make amends, starting with their Diversity and Dragons statement early last year. They've also been hiring more sensitivity readers and cultural consultants recently. It seems like they are continuing to try and be as inclusive as possible, even with the PR controversy in the past couple of years.

So, no, this is complete nonsense.

Yes Wotc can hire and pay external consultant for every cultural matter. It won’t be the same for lesser creators. But for more sensible subject maybe even Wotc will just pass. These days there are university professors that avoid sensible subjects, authors, and books in their classes just to buy peace.

 

[dragoner]

Man what the heck game was that?

A sci fi game, tbh it had other issues as well, I don't want to go on a tangent though.

 

[MGibster]

Wotc is hiring. They could start by hiring bipoc game designers.

Earlier this year they were hiring a diversity, equity, and inclusion manager and I'm certain whoever they hired is going to be looking at WotC's recruiting methods. Standard practice is to cast a wider net in your recruiting efforts to find candidates from demographics that are underrepresented in the company.

 

[CleverNickName]

I think you have me confused with someone else as I never suggested such a thing.

I'll revise my post.

 

[Umbran]

So the Gaz10 setting was printable 30 years ago, and today it is racism and bad taste mockery.

It was racism and bad taste mockery 30 years ago, too. And folks knew it then - mockery sells not in spite of being mean, but because it is mean. These were jokes at other people's expense, that you didn't need to worry paying a price for, back in the day.

The difference now is that more folks have realized that the world is better if you pick on people your own size, and are willing to stand up for those who need allies.

 

[MGibster]

It was racism and bad taste mockery 30 years ago, too. And folks knew it then - mockery sells not in spite of being mean, but because it is mean. These were jokes at other people's expense, that you didn't need to worry paying a price for, back in the day.

It's kind of weird reading contemporary reviews and not seeing any mention of the racism or bad taste mockery in Orcs of Thar. I was twelve in 1988 so a lot it would have just gone unnoticed by me as I didn't have an appreciation of the wider world. But looking at it for the first time now, yeesh! Part of me wonders how it could have even been published. Then again, it was just a six years later that World of Darkness gave us their version of the Romani. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised about Thar.