D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Zardnaar]

Hi Zardnaar -- I'd prefer that Luis speak for himself. Could you clarify whether the Greek poster was speaking of Ixalan, or of Theros?

Please note that my research is not inherently opposed to fantasy adaptations of any real world culture. Many, perhaps most, fantasy stories draw upon Real World cultural motifs, including The Lord of the Rings, and almost all D&D worlds, from Mystara to Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms to Krynn to Ravenloft to Birthright to Eberron. Dark Sun probably has the least discernable real-world motifs.

And thus, though I understand that many persons in the community like to assert the argument that it's simply wrong to use any real-world motifs at all in fantasy works, I feel that's a distraction from the specifics of what I'm sharing in this thread.

Greek poster was referring to Theros.

Having American rip off other cultures doesn't always play well overseas. Same issue here with people doing the All Black haka overseas.

 

[guachi]

“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”

—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian”

He's wrong on where the word "Indian" comes from. It's derived from the Indus River. Nothing to do with god.

 

[Zardnaar]

He's wrong on where the word "Indian" comes from. It's derived from the Indus River. Nothing to do with god.

It's basically what they knew if the world from Alexander the Great (psychopath).

Columbus was trying to get to India/China to bypass the Ottomans.

Details were very sparse. Here be dragons type sparse and writings from centuries before (Alexander, Marco Polo etc)

 

[Dungeonosophy]

He's wrong on where the word "Indian" comes from. It's derived from the Indus River. Nothing to do with god.

Russell Means was one of the foremost leaders of American Indian Movement. He was the head of nation of the breakaway Republic of Lakotah. He was considered a respected elder. What he's sharing is imaginal-traditional knowledge, which includes "folk etymology." Not necessarily the lexicographer's entry from the Oxford English Dictionary.

In Means' traditional viewpoint, the word "Indian" means "in God" to him; and you are not in a position to tell him he's "wrong." You might as well also say: "I looked the word "God" up in the encyclopedia, and scientists have proven that there's no such thing as God. So he's wrong about that too." Means is asserting a traditional viewpoint, not giving a dissertation on etymology.

 

[Imaculata]

Basing anything on a real life culture is inherently problematic if it's not yours even with sensitivity readers who ultimately represent themselves only.

Only if the depiction is offensive. Imo, taking inspiration from real world cultures is fine.

For example, Vietnam has many different sub cultures, many with their own traditional clothing. If I were to draw inspiration from their style of clothing for a fictional culture, I see nothing wrong with that. If on the other hand I use racist asian tropes, it is a whole different story.

 

[guachi]

DELETED

 

[guachi]

Russell Means was one of the foremost leaders of American Indian Movement. He was the head of nation of the breakaway Republic of Lakotah. He was considered a respected elder. What he's sharing is imaginal-traditional knowledge, which includes "folk etymology." Not necessarily the lexicographer's entry from the Oxford English Dictionary.

In Means' traditional viewpoint, the word "Indian" means "in God" to him; and you are not in a position to tell him he's "wrong." You might as well also say: "I looked the word "God" up in the encyclopedia, and scientists have proven that there's no such thing as God. So he's wrong about that too." Means is asserting a traditional viewpoint, not giving a dissertation on etymology.

No, he's asserting he knows the etymology of the word. "I know where that came from". Don't pretend he didn't say that. It's folk etymology that has no actual bearing on reality. So he's wrong. Just because it's his reality doesn't mean it's the actual reality we all live in. People are allowed to be wrong. It doesn't mean I have to pretend they're correct.

 

[Zardnaar]

Only if the depiction is offensive. Imo, taking inspiration from real world cultures is fine.

For example, Vietnam has many different sub cultures, many with their own traditional clothing. If I were to draw inspiration from their style of clothing for a fictional culture, I see nothing wrong with that. If on the other hand I use racist asian tropes, it is a whole different story.

Just saying that's how some Europeans feel but you can apply it to Aussie, Canada, NZ etc.

What's offensive bor not is purely subjective. But if someone from a culture you depicted claims it's offensive and you don't think so generally I'll lean towards the smaller culture.

Basically it's seen as American cultural imperialism. Not saying it's right or wrong but that's how they feel.

You can't have it both ways really although I'll expect people to try.

All I know if an American tells some else their cultural values are wrong it's gonna run them up the wrong way from NZ to Aussiie to Europe and pretty much everything in between. Espicially if said Americans are depicting their culture or appropriating their symbols.

 

[cowpie]

No, he's asserting he knows the etymology of the word. "I know where that came from". Don't pretend he didn't say that. It's folk etymology that has no actual bearing on reality. So he's wrong. Just because it's his reality doesn't mean it's the actual reality we all live in. People are allowed to be wrong. It doesn't mean I have to pretend they're correct.

Means is an interesting person, but he's only human, and definitely had his flaws and foibles. He was also a career politician and actor, so it's ok to take some of what he said with a grain of salt.

 

[Imaculata]

What's offensive or not is purely subjective.

Is it though?

I think we can all agree that Chief Sitting Drool is objectively offensive. I Also think there are ways to take inspiration from a culture, without creating an offensive racist stereotype of that same culture.