D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[TwoSix]

So, your thinking on the Cleric vs. Warlock dichotomy is they both receive their powers from an entity of some from, Cleric from gods, Warlocks from patrons. I can go with that for most of the Warlock spells, but IMO for balance some will probably trickle into Druid and Wizard and might fit them better for flavor.

I think that's fine. Someone above (@vincegetorix, I believe) mentioned something about hell-themed spells going towards Cleric, and the astrological/star spells going to Wizard, which is a nice dichotomy I didn't think of. I'd certainly be supportive of that interpretation. We're not at 3rd level yet, but I was already thinking Hunger of Hadar seemed more of a Wizard spell than a Cleric spell to me at this point.

Your thinking on Druid is the "life energy" idea, which is sound, and necro == rot basically, right? But what about healing? The idea of an "evil cleric" who causes injury (e.g. Inflict Wounds) would become the "evil druid". I am concerned with some of the ideas you've expressed Druids are becoming a bit "twisted" in a sense, wanting the eerie, rotting, witchy-vibe. I guess instead of "spread the love, man" I think we need to consider "spread the evil, man." Do you see my point or am I missing something in your interpretation? I am trying to move in that general direction, but I think we need to make certain we don't push it too hard.

For me personally, I would conceptually be OK with druids being the primary healing class, but I think that moves too far from what the expected definition of the classes are.

I think the thing here is that for me, I'm trying to not build this class first...I'm trying to step back and say "What makes divine magic different from arcane magic and druidic magic." So I have kind of a simple head canon for this, where Divine is more lawful and civilization oriented, and Arcane is more chaotic, about personal discovery of the secrets of the universe, and Primal/druidic magic is about the Material Plane, and its Feywild and Shadowfell echoes. And that feeds into why I like charm/domination magic....fundamentally, clerical magic is about people. It enhances them, protects them, and can also take them over.

I suppose we need to think about the what and the how and the why. For example, I am really torn about Expeditious Retreat. It feels more druidy and rangery to me than wizardy. In the same light, I think of Misty Step as sort of the precursor to Dimension Door, and the Teleport spells--but the very name, "Misty Step", and how it functions screams "DRUID!" IMO.

I think the other real fundamental distinction is how much of an mechanical niche to give each type of magic. The light cantrips and Misty Step are perfect examples. If you can do the same effect, but it's just done thematically three different ways, have you actually provided differentiation? I think different people would give different answers to that.

Below is a quick summary:
Armor of Agathys - Cleric
Arms of Hadar - Cleric
Cause Fear - Cleric
Expeditious Retreat - Wizard
False Life - Druid
Grease - Wizard
Hellish Rebuke - Cleric
Hex - Cleric
Inflict Wounds - Druid
Thunderwave - Wizard

I think this looks like a good resolution. There's nothing there that jumps out at me as a "Wait a minute, no no no." It's all just "Well, you could also do it this way..." which I think is a good compromise position to be in.

 

[Fenris-77]

This might be a little meta compared to the very philospophical underpinnings outlined above, but some account needs to be taken of the fact that there are definite tiers of spells in 5e - they are not, by a mile, created equal. So either making sure that the best spells get spread evenly, or in some rational way. I would probably very much default to more of those spells going on the arcane list based on the number of class abilities that Clerics and Druids get.

The program here might also include tinkering with class abilities I guess, but if not, the spell tiers are an important consideration.

 

[TwoSix]

It Is a noble task to set distinctive spell list,
but what is the purpose when subclass like domain, celestial patron, celestial origin break everything by making cross access to spells?

To my mind, a secondary step after this initial spell list would be to make changes to concepts like clerical domains (especially) to maintain exclusivity. Having a cleric cast fireball or invisibility breaks down the entire concept of niche protection the post from the original thread presented as a goal.

I mean, straight up, this concept is NOT a buff to casters. It is not being done with the intent of broadening the amount of supported concepts. There are currently allowed 5e PHB concepts that will not work with this set of rules. This ruleset change is about having each class provide a more focused and discrete play experience from each other.

 

[TwoSix]

This might be a little meta compared to the very philospophical underpinnings outlined above, but some account needs to be taken of the fact that there are definite tiers of spells in 5e - they are not, by a mile, created equal. So either making sure that the best spells get spread evenly, or in some rational way. I would probably very much default to more of those spells going on the arcane list based on the number of class abilities that Clerics and Druids get.

The program here might also include tinkering with class abilities I guess, but if not, the spell tiers are an important consideration.

Agreed. There are a couple of "filters", for lack of a better term, that need to be applied, and I don't think all of them can be applied on a first pass. There's thematic consistency first, then making sure there's a fair amount of mechanical differentiation (certain types of spells, like AoE, or healing spells, should only be available to one or two magic types). Then you look at the synergy of the spells available and make sure there's no obviously abusive combination, especially in regards to non-concentration spells. Tweaking the core classes is probably the last step once we're sure the lists look good.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think that's fine. Someone above (@vincegetorix, I believe) mentioned something about hell-themed spells going towards Cleric, and the astrological/star spells going to Wizard, which is a nice dichotomy I didn't think of. I'd certainly be supportive of that interpretation. We're not at 3rd level yet, but I was already thinking Hunger of Hadar seemed more of a Wizard spell than a Cleric spell to me at this point.

I liked the idea by @vincegetorix as well and I think that will be a nice first idea for the warlock spells in moving them between the types of patrons they have. I'll plan on moving Arms of Hadar to Wizard for now.

For me personally, I would conceptually be OK with druids being the primary healing class, but I think that moves too far from what the expected definition of the classes are.

I agree. I think moving healing to Druid moves too much against expectations. IMO it would be like taking Magic Missile away from Wizards.

I think the thing here is that for me, I'm trying to not build this class first...I'm trying to step back and say "What makes divine magic different from arcane magic and druidic magic." So I have kind of a simple head canon for this, where Divine is more lawful and civilization oriented, and Arcane is more chaotic, about personal discovery of the secrets of the universe, and Primal/druidic magic is about the Material Plane, and its Feywild and Shadowfell echoes. And that feeds into why I like charm/domination magic....fundamentally, clerical magic is about people. It enhances them, protects them, and can also take them over.

I am basically going along the same path, and I think that is why nearly 75% of the spells aligned the first time through. I agree with much of the cleric having most of the charm/domination (humanoids) spells, but to me something like Charm Person is different because the Cleric already had Friends, Command, and Suggestion. It is the light issue again, a bit of overlap but justified due to the Fey connection with Druid.

I think the other real fundamental distinction is how much of an mechanical niche to give each type of magic. The light cantrips and Misty Step are perfect examples. If you can do the same effect, but it's just done thematically three different ways, have you actually provided differentiation? I think different people would give different answers to that.

Yep. Different opinions of course. We'll just do the best we can I suppose.

I think this looks like a good resolution. There's nothing there that jumps out at me as a "Wait a minute, no no no." It's all just "Well, you could also do it this way..." which I think is a good compromise position to be in.

Cool. I am pretty happy with it for the first "run-through" and will post 2nd level spells after lunch today.

 

[TwoSix]

I am basically going along the same path, and I think that is why nearly 75% of the spells aligned the first time through. I agree with much of the cleric having most of the charm/domination (humanoids) spells, but to me something like Charm Person is different because the Cleric already had Friends, Command, and Suggestion. It is the light issue again, a bit of overlap but justified due to the Fey connection with Druid.

I'm cool with Charm Person going Druid. I've definitely moved towards the idea of playing up the fey aspect of druids.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm cool with Charm Person going Druid. I've definitely moved towards the idea of playing up the fey aspect of druids.

I think the Druid would be way cooler if the Fey thing was a core part of the class. You have your Feywild Druid, your Shadowfell Druid, and maybe some Elemental Flavors. Cooler than just a dude dressed in green who like animals and whacking people with magic sticks.

 

[akr71]

I think the Druid would be way cooler if the Fey thing was a core part of the class. You have your Feywild Druid, your Shadowfell Druid, and maybe some Elemental Flavors. Cooler than just a dude dressed in green who like animals and whacking people with magic sticks.

Now see - that's a druid I would be interested in playing! I would also be totally fine with druid's not having access to healing spells - with the exception of Goodberry.

A totally separate problem to the Spell List issue is perhaps giving Druids (& Rangers) more ready access to other avenues of healing. I wanted to say 'non-magical healing' but in my mind I was thinking crafting healing poultices, potions and salves, which some people would have a hard time differentiating from 'magic.' Healing Magic <> Healing Spells IMO

 

[Fenris-77]

Now see - that's a druid I would be interested in playing! I would also be totally fine with druid's not having access to healing spells - with the exception of Goodberry.

A totally separate problem to the Spell List issue is perhaps giving Druids (& Rangers) more ready access to other avenues of healing. I wanted to say 'non-magical healing' but in my mind I was thinking crafting healing poultices, potions and salves, which some people would have a hard time differentiating from 'magic.' Healing Magic <> Healing Spells IMO

You could work extra healing through a tool proficiency and extra effect without it seeming magical. I don't think there's enough non-magical healing in the game anyway, not that seems like actual, you know, medicine, and not just some die rolls done on a rest (like hit dice).

 

[akr71]

^ @Fenris-77 Oh, for sure! Easy-peasy. I would just like it baked in to the class(es), especially if healing through spells is being removed from them.