Selling items : illogical rule ?

[darkrose50]

No, you're strawmanning.

I really have played in games where people put there lowest score in charisma, and get away with being as good as the guy who put his highest score in charisma. It is common. I thought you were one of them who thought it was okay as long as folks are having fun. It would ruin my fun if I was the one who put my high score into charisma and did not get any benefit out of doing so.

Great, so run a skill challenge. And ask your cousin just how long it would take him to sell, say a set of jewelry for worth 1 million dollars.

Skill challenges are great. I would love to see a huge list of them. I would also like to see this printed in the rules “items can be sold for 20% of the cost needed to craft them, unless you use one of these skill challenges listed on page xxx.”

Otherwise saying house rule it does not fly.

 

[Kraydak]

IRL it seems that oftentimes non-mercantile people selling objects or goods will often get 20% of retail. Think of pawnshops, garage sales, used CD stores.

In our world, I'm sure 20% is more realistic than higher values in approximating what return our world's 'adventurers,' mercenaries, pirates, criminals, etc., would get for selling a bunch of guns, body armor, ammunition, etc. they got off of some enemies that they killed.

IRL people who buy used goods at 20% retail DO NOT turn around and sell them at 100% of retail.

 

[DLichen]

IRL people who buy used goods at 20% retail DO NOT turn around and sell them at 100% of retail.

Tell that to my college bookstore.

 

[Goumindong]

Here is the first definition for supply and demand I found on Google, and it seems just fine.

The definition of "supply and demand" is neither the definition for supply nor the definition for demand.

The cost of an item is made up of supply and demand. The exception to the rule would be what I term the “marble jewel incrusted toilet” effect. Some items cost more to make than they have a demand for.

Everything, it would seem, has the “marble jewel incrusted toilet” effect in D&D. It should be the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.

And this is stupid.

Transactions costs. Do you understand them? "the Marble encrusted toilet" is not an aberration of supply and demand, but a factor of it. It has a low supply because its expensive to create. This low supply means that no one will be willing to sell one unless they get a lot of money for it.

Do enlighten me. The demand part of the demand for X comes from people who demand said item? Wow.

Good. Now figure out what demand is. You stated that "people who have money will demand expensive stuff" and it is not true. Stuff is expensive because either supply is low or demand is high. In the case of magic items its because supply is low and transaction costs high.

Give me an example where you can not buy item X for 20% of its value, must pay 100% of the value for item X, and can not sell item X for anything but 20% of its value.

A Pawn Shop. The only place to go when you want to sell anything fast.

A video game store. Used games are often way way way worse than 20%.

Ever sold a car to a used car salesman? Every seen how they get those cars?

I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures are economic imbeciles unable to sell an item for anything other than 20% of the cost required to make it.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that only adventures would want magical items.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures don’t know other adventures, or how to locate them.
I think it is preposterous to conclude that adventures cant hire an agent, got to an auction house, or use there intellect to find a buyer.

1. There is no presumption of this. There is only the presumption of the presumption because the person making the presumption hasn't a clue what he is talking about.

2. It is. That is why its not assumed. It is simply assumed that the amount of people who want these magic items is very low compared to the amount of cost it takes to produce them.

3. Really? And how do you know other heroic individuals. Isn't that up to your DM?

4. They can, its a skill challenge. And it takes time, you don't just look up a table and get it over with. Which you cannot accept.

The first definition for feudalism I googled says

That you do not know the difference between politics and economics. Political systems are systems by which public decisions are made. Economics is a study of how people make decisions.

Selling an item may take time. But it is an option to take that time. I would think a roll every time period would be fair. Modified by the seller in question, his skill, and feats.

I still do not think that selling magical armor, weaponry, or health fortifying items would be hard in a feudalistic economy.

So what you are saying is that you want it to be a skill challenge and you want to role play it?

The sell everything for 20% of its crafting cost is a silly rule that ruins things for folks who care about crafting or economics. And it’s dumb.

No, it ruins it for people who want to break the game to get stuff they would otherwise have by playing the system. But they ruin it for everyone else so frankly i don't care if they get their fun spoiled.

If you care about playing the game to be a crafter or to be a merchant then expect to role play being a crafter and merchant. Its a role playing game that is what you do. Just as you do not start a combat then look up on a table for who has the best combination to win and then skip right to the end (you meet some goblins, lose 2 healing surges, and one encounter power, but you defeat them and gain 100 gold and a +1 dagger) you do not gloss over someone wanting to be a merchant or crafter. If you want to gloss over it then you get your money fast and you get 20% of the market price.

It keeps you from ruining the game.

 

[Goumindong]

Skill challenges are great. I would love to see a huge list of them. I would also like to see this printed in the rules “items can be sold for 20% of the cost needed to craft them, unless you use one of these skill challenges listed on page xxx.”

Otherwise saying house rule it does not fly.

Its not a house rule, go read the skill challenges section. That is the entire point of having skill challenges, so you don't have to write down tables for every possible thing that a PC wants to do.

 

[darkrose50]

I think you're taking this way too seriously. It's a game with rules to help the game. If you don't like them, change them.

For example, take some of the money in theory you hand out as treasure parcels. Let people sell magic items at a higher price but take the extra by drawing on those. They run out of buyers if they run out of parcels.

Fits the rest of the game and is a quick solution.

I am having a good time talking about it, its fun. I would be happy with that fix.

I would also be happy with the fix of having the GM take an inventory every so often of the value of the parties magical items, and give out bonus parcels based on the disappearances on what a party should have for there level (by spending gold on anything not magical gear).

The first fix I thought of was to limit the number of magical items a character could equip by level based on the gold value needed to create the item. I would define magic items as being items that only powerful souls could use (based on level). I would then say it would take a week to attune to a magical item, unless an action point was spent for an immediate attunement (one could do so a number of times per week equal to ones constitution or wisdom bonus, minimum once per week). That way I would define magical items, and not economics.

 

[Goumindong]

So, you are assuming that there are a mere handful of (say, Heroic Tier) adventurers covering an *entire world*. Because an *entire world* is smaller than the range on Linked Portal, and you will only have a mere three people in a "trade zone" if you have a mere handful of heroic tier adventurers in the feeding area of the trading zone.

As a side note, Linked Portal's effect on a game world make 3e's Teleport look positively tame: infinite distance+absurdly high cargo limit+negligible per/day casting limit=teh awesome.

Its "points of light" not "huge swaths of light" or "points of darkness". Adventurers are few and far between. That is the point of them being adventurers and being special.

 

[Grabuto138]

I really have played in games where people put there lowest score in charisma, and get away with being as good as the guy who put his highest score in charisma. It is common. I thought you were one of them who thought it was okay as long as folks are having fun. It would ruin my fun if I was the one who put my high score into charisma and did not get any benefit out of doing so.



Skill challenges are great. I would love to see a huge list of them. I would also like to see this printed in the rules “items can be sold for 20% of the cost needed to craft them, unless you use one of these skill challenges listed on page xxx.”

Otherwise saying house rule it does not fly.

Since you are well-versed in economics, are you also unhappy with the inelastic cost of mundane items? Shouldn't the rules include a chart that modifies the cost of an item based on its distance from the commodity used to craft the item and the quality and safety of the roads used to transport the commodity. The 1st edition DMG had a probibility curve in the first few pages to explain the difference between d8 and 2d4. Maybe 4E should have a demand curve and rules for modifying the cost of items based on demand from a variety of variables (war, banditry, long peace). And supply changes such as newly discovered mines, improved roads. There are also labor costs to consider. Is there a guild that might artifically increase prices? Recent depopulation that depresses the value of labor? Lets also not forget comparative advantage. The Dwarves may be better at making plate and leather armor. Do they make both or let the humans make the leather and concetrate on plate? How does this impact cost?

 

[Kraydak]

No, it ruins it for people who want to break the game to get stuff they would otherwise have by playing the system. But they ruin it for everyone else so frankly i don't care if they get their fun spoiled.

If I want to play an intelligent, wise character in 4e, I have to choose:
(1) don't play the character.
(2) break the economic model to pieces.
The economic model is *so* bad that I would have to deliberately not role-play to avoid breaking the model. Beer-and-pretzel games FTW! Role-playing FTL!

 

[Goumindong]

If I want to play an intelligent, wise character in 4e, I have to choose:
(1) don't play the character.
(2) break the economic model to pieces.
The economic model is *so* bad that I would have to deliberately not role-play to avoid breaking the model. Beer-and-pretzel games FTW! Role-playing FTL!

Why? I have already explained to you how the economic model is consistent. You do not have to be stupid to make rational decisions based on the utility of cash now versus cash later.

ed: Grabuto, now you are just being mean.